AHC - United Indian Subcontinent

Will a United Subcontinent Be Possible ?

  • Yes

    Votes: 78 66.1%
  • No

    Votes: 40 33.9%

  • Total voters
    118
@John7755 يوحنا is right when he says that the caste systems rigidity is not really a reason for a perceived weakening of Indic civilisation. I’d go so far as to say that a true decline never really occurred, and that the perception of decline is largely a British colonial construction. They wanted us to think that they were saving "Hindu civilisation" and restoring it to a golden age from before those filthy iconoclastic muslims came along and ruined it all. There is massive continuity in the literature and culture of Hindus and Indians in general in the 900s and 1300s, apart from the constant adaptations that must happen as the situation changes. Likewise, it was them that introduced the tripartite division of Indian history into the "Hindu period" until 1200, the "Muslim period" until 1800 and the "modern period" thereafter, which incorrectly implies that Hinduism was relegated to political irrelevancy in the early modern era and had thus declined morally and spiritually, and it also ignores that the "Hindu period" was overflowing with Buddhist states

@Dragonspectre I hotly contest your claim that the manusmriti lead to the stagnation of social mobility in the medieval era. John has already raised good points comparing it to similar related indo Iranian systems, and id like to mention the strict racial hierarchy and anti miscegenation laws of the Arthashastra. Moreover, in the medieval eras there are innumerable examples of groups asserting higher caste status as they gain power- the Marathas started off as Bhumias and shudras but quite easily managed to be recognised as higher caste once they had military power, and their Lower caste status didn’t stop them getting it. The Rajputs themselves, the quintessential Kshatriyas, only made the jump up from vaishyas in the 12-1300s. Further, the Nayaka rulers of the 17th and18th centuries were often proud of their shudra origin, maintaining it as part of their self identity, and it most certainly didn’t stop them from maintaining very high social status.
Further, the theory of the caste system allowed for remarkable cultural stability and ability to incorporate new ruling classes without being assimilated.


Ashoka abandoned Hindu religion and embraced Buddhism. It was his work and patronage that saw the wide spread of Buddhism around the world. The Maurya dynasty was entrenched in Buddhist ideology of Ahimsa and that led to their defeat.
This is an illogical explanation for the fall of the Mauryans- i have never wrapped my head around the argument that a powerful, highly militarised empire, which had conquered and fended off rivals through force of arms, decided one day just to stop it, especially given that they continued to punish rebels and control their empire for a while yetThe argument that Buddhist states are less warlike falls apart very quickly (Japan, Qing, Dzungars, Ayutthaya, Toungoo Burma).




But a consist Hindu dynasty will eventually lead to Sanskrit establishment
Just like how all Catholic states maintain Latin as their language of government, and how Pakistan’s bureaucracy is all Arabic? Religion is not the only part of the Indian cultural identity, and while there is a case to be made that Sanskrit was the recognised language of elites across the subcontinent, it has the disadvantages of subordinating it’s rulers to the brahmanical hierarchy, which can create the virtual diarchy of some nayaka states where the king or his actions were illegitimate and illegal if the locally important temples said so. This is alternate history, so I’m not going to say it’s impossible, but I think Sanskrit doesn’t have a greater chance of winning out than any given vernacular, especially not after the 1500s.
 
Yea I like the idea of a New Kushan empire.

The Kushans were able to essentially dominate the old areas of Aryan civilization in the Gangetic Plains and the Indus Valley was a firm integral section of Kushan rule. However, the Kushan were unable to fully breach the Satahavana realm to the south in the Deccan. Admittedly, the Kushan do not seem to have engaged directly the Deccanate realms. They left their satraps, the Scythian Western Satraps or its other Scytho-Hindu satraps to conduct war with the Satahavanas, with mixed results. Western Satrap rule extended for soem periods over most of the Marathi lands, but this was a short lived situation, surely.
 
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I find a system of military in ancient or medieval periods, based upon merit to be overrated. Only if a realm can do mass conscription and possess weapons that equalize matters between the sedentary farming folk with that of noble caste warriors is it feasible. China attempted to counter its issues with vast armies and better technology. Even with these factors, as the works from the Early Western Han mention, the styles of warfare common in the steppe, who possessed royal castes, priestly castes and the like, were more aggressive, more fearsome and more hardy in the field of battle. It was precisely because said men were true professionals, not simply peasants trained to thrust a spearpoint or even someone who fights for money. They fought as a custom and religious duty, it is a different sort of initiative and power entirely.
Even well into the modern era meritocracy continued to produce duds. Ludwig von Benedek was a Calvinist of firmly middle class stock who rose to the highest position in the Austrian army, he promptly lead it to its penultimate disaster at Königgrätz. His opposite number? A Prussian noble, whose subordinates included members of the Prussian Royal family.
 
Indian empire problem was - when state gain stability many trade center arose around the empire which provides the vassels needed fund to rise in rebalion .
See how large army needed to be rebal- 100 thousand soldier , a trade center easily can provide that money and 1/4 population regularly train for war as professional so you gain easily a trained armies .
For stable empire you needed a centralised revenues system, which only have authority to raise taxes. No one other than emperor needed to be in control of treasury.
 
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This is your interpretation of 'Hinduism,' but the idea of a caste system that is strong and an important fixture of a society is a noted conception in other Indo-European societies. They held castes that at times were extremely rigid without the laws of Manu. Scythian society for instance, possessed a rigid and hierarchical caste system that did not permit the levels of freedom that you mention. So unless, you feel that the caste system or Varna of the lands of the Hindu is an entity unconnected to the castes of the people of Central Asia and Iran, then I feel you would have to at least admit that it is your own opinion regarding what is permissible according to the systems of varna or jaati.

The Hindu world also, I do not believe possessed a true level of social mobility in its ancient period. The idea that one can rise high is only one edge of the sabre as they say. A society that had a more social mobile mode of existence, was that of the Akkadian society and culture of the Bronze and Iron Age. Wherein, a man could become a god or a king and his royal house could become a chattel slave, for 'the Great Gods favor strength.' In the older texts from the Vedic era, it speaks of a person of any caste of social standing being free fundamentally, for the sun touches all occupations and ranks of society and grants them freedom in that sense. Furthermore, in a mentality of the world that is ever in flux yet always a constant cycle, it would make sense that one has true freedom, but otherwise is locked into a caste for this particular life for the sake of social harmony.

The case of Chandragupta was different. While legends around him differ, he was adopted by a member from the Brahmin caste, a high ranking person undoubted; above all other occupations and ranks. This is why Chandragupta was permitted to study in Taxila and learn the secrets of Dharma and become acquainted with matters not usually known; because he was 'chosen.' In other words, the myth around him do not affirm that a lowly shepherd can become a king, but that it is still the Gods who choose a king, it is the priestly caste which asserts a ruler and makes him resound across the land. Chandragupta was chosen by the Gods and appointed by the highest caste, he did not rise up the ranks and attain something freely.

Permitting others to rise to prominence may seem positive, but it also carries with it issues. Armies from China for instance worked under total conscription and a form of meritocracy. However, these practices did not produce superior armies to the foes that they often faced, who existed in terms of hierarchies, noble forces and castes. Likewise, as I often point to; the standing meritocratic army of the Sassanids was inferior objectively to the noble warrior caste armies risen by the Great Houses. For one, in a society wherein items such as bravery and skill with weapons is still useful, having a caste of humans whose sole objective is to train for war, prepare for war and otherwise does no other work, is an enormous advantage.

It may not permit some sort of genius to rise up, but that is in my opinion an overrated quality in the grand scheme of history. More important is the attempt to assure stability and longevity, which is the truly rare quantity in human states, not genius. Chandragupta's Mauryan empire was an ephemeral entity in the grand scheme of matters, certainly in comparison to states that did possesses deeply entrenched caste systems, like that of the Arsaco-Sassanid confederacies which ruled a more or less stable territorial border zone fro nigh 900 years; whilst the Mauryan empire in particular ruled its territories fro around 120 years before it receded to a territory smaller than the Nanda. One could argue the Magadhi empires displayed a level of longevity when discussed in overall terms. But this is different than the prior countries mentioned, in that the Magadhi varied wildly in their territorial expanse. It was anything but a stable imperial concept.
Manu Smriti might be the root cause of Caste system, for example, B R Ambedkar burned it 1927 as he felt it was the sole reason for Caste System, without it, Caste system will not become so rigid
So what do you think could be the uniting factor for the subcontinent
 
I find a system of military in ancient or medieval periods, based upon merit to be overrated. Only if a realm can do mass conscription and possess weapons that equalize matters between the sedentary farming folk with that of noble caste warriors is it feasible. China attempted to counter its issues with vast armies and better technology. Even with these factors, as the works from the Early Western Han mention, the styles of warfare common in the steppe, who possessed royal castes, priestly castes and the like, were more aggressive, more fearsome and more hardy in the field of battle. It was precisely because said men were true professionals, not simply peasants trained to thrust a spearpoint or even someone who fights for money. They fought as a custom and religious duty, it is a different sort of initiative and power entirely.
Still, it is better than the caste system
 
@John7755 يوحنا is right when he says that the caste systems rigidity is not really a reason for a perceived weakening of Indic civilisation. I’d go so far as to say that a true decline never really occurred, and that the perception of decline is largely a British colonial construction. They wanted us to think that they were saving "Hindu civilisation" and restoring it to a golden age from before those filthy iconoclastic muslims came along and ruined it all. There is massive continuity in the literature and culture of Hindus and Indians in general in the 900s and 1300s, apart from the constant adaptations that must happen as the situation changes. Likewise, it was them that introduced the tripartite division of Indian history into the "Hindu period" until 1200, the "Muslim period" until 1800 and the "modern period" thereafter, which incorrectly implies that Hinduism was relegated to political irrelevancy in the early modern era and had thus declined morally and spiritually, and it also ignores that the "Hindu period" was overflowing with Buddhist states
I Disagree, Hindu kingdom and patronage was in stagnation when the central asians invaded, it resulted in widespread loss of life as well as infrastructure
@Dragonspectre I hotly contest your claim that the manusmriti lead to the stagnation of social mobility in the medieval era. John has already raised good points comparing it to similar related indo Iranian systems, and id like to mention the strict racial hierarchy and anti miscegenation laws of the Arthashastra. Moreover, in the medieval eras there are innumerable examples of groups asserting higher caste status as they gain power- the Marathas started off as Bhumias and shudras but quite easily managed to be recognised as higher caste once they had military power, and their Lower caste status didn’t stop them getting it. The Rajputs themselves, the quintessential Kshatriyas, only made the jump up from vaishyas in the 12-1300s. Further, the Nayaka rulers of the 17th and18th centuries were often proud of their shudra origin, maintaining it as part of their self identity, and it most certainly didn’t stop them from maintaining very high social status.
Further, the theory of the caste system allowed for remarkable cultural stability and ability to incorporate new ruling classes without being assimilated.
That is true enough, without a rigid caste system, you can see more upward social mobility, leading to better meritocracy
Just like how all Catholic states maintain Latin as their language of government, and how Pakistan’s bureaucracy is all Arabic? Religion is not the only part of the Indian cultural identity, and while there is a case to be made that Sanskrit was the recognised language of elites across the subcontinent, it has the disadvantages of subordinating it’s rulers to the brahmanical hierarchy, which can create the virtual diarchy of some nayaka states where the king or his actions were illegitimate and illegal if the locally important temples said so. This is alternate history, so I’m not going to say it’s impossible, but I think Sanskrit doesn’t have a greater chance of winning out than any given vernacular, especially not after the 1500s.
Sanskrit will be one language that will be commonly accepted by all, and I do not think any other language has that sway, and Pakistan successfully established Urdu as it , Lingua Franca, so it would not be difficult
 
Just like how all Catholic states maintain Latin as their language of government, and how Pakistan’s bureaucracy is all Arabic?
Because Bible does written in Latin and it was not Catholic state religious languages only Church languages . Otherwise as seen in Jews they today speak Hebrew when in 2000 years there was not a empire or kingdom in which it spoken as comman languages . It happens due to Hebrew consider as religious languages.
For Pakistan accepting Arabic - they accepted Urdu which is not a local language of Pakistan , imported by central India Muslim leader when it become identify as languages of Muslim . So Pakistan accepted a languages Urdu which identify as Muslim languages and there is increasing Arabic influence in Pakistani Urdu .so please there is matter of religious languages . Sanskrit can easily becomes comman languages if there is Hindu empire in 19 century , why as in. Europe in same time all scientific research done in Latin in India it will be done in Sanskrit . And if there is a Hindu kingdom lower class will fight more vigorously for equal rights as seen in OTL all reform for lower class in Hindu society came first in Princely state example-
1-Chhatrapati Shahu first start reservation in Government Job .
2-Kerala, Baroda, Gawalior started education for all also for lower class.
3- Ambedkar gain his education with help of Maharaj of Baroda .
So Hindu empire will be better for lower class of society.
 
Because Bible does written in Latin and it was not Catholic state religious languages only Church languages . Otherwise as seen in Jews they today speak Hebrew when in 2000 years there was not a empire or kingdom in which it spoken as comman languages . It happens due to Hebrew consider as religious languages.
For Pakistan accepting Arabic - they accepted Urdu which is not a local language of Pakistan , imported by central India Muslim leader when it become identify as languages of Muslim . So Pakistan accepted a languages Urdu which identify as Muslim languages and there is increasing Arabic influence in Pakistani Urdu .so please there is matter of religious languages . Sanskrit can easily becomes comman languages if there is Hindu empire in 19 century , why as in. Europe in same time all scientific research done in Latin in India it will be done in Sanskrit . And if there is a Hindu kingdom lower class will fight more vigorously for equal rights as seen in OTL all reform for lower class in Hindu society came first in Princely state example-
1-Chhatrapati Shahu first start reservation in Government Job .
2-Kerala, Baroda, Gawalior started education for all also for lower class.
3- Ambedkar gain his education with help of Maharaj of Baroda .
So Hindu empire will be better for lower class of society.
You are right, it will eventually become the language of the Subcontinent as it is for a religious as well as cultural language
 
That is true enough, without a rigid caste system, you can see more upward social mobility, leading to better meritocracy
My point is that the idea of a rigid caste system is literally impossible and despite constant theory hasn’t ever truly existed because it’s impossible to enforce - there are numerous ways to circumvent the theory for those with the means. In the political sphere, caste has very rarely been a barrier in the timespan of generations, just as a european peasant family could move up over generations but probably not all in one.
Nevertheless, what power the system had was maintained because it simply allowed for a stable method of producing workers in various industries owing to the family based training mechanism- before mass education that’s the best way of doing things. Thus as an institution the caste system was on the whole quite beneficial before the British came along and made it racism.
For a meritocracy to work, you need a wide pool of qualified officials, such that you have a true choice in filling positions. It’s a fact of society that those educated by nobles tend to be better qualified than those who aren’t, so unless you’re providing that education to the lower classes as the Mughals did, the labour pool of just the upper castes is more than enough to create a meritocracy and opening it up to the lower classes merely lowers the average.
Sanskrit will be one language that will be commonly accepted by all, and I do not think any other language has that sway, and Pakistan successfully established Urdu as it , Lingua Franca, so it would not be difficult
The whole point of a conquest is that you can force the elite to adopt your practices- Sanskrit being the established language of the elites before the medieval period doesn’t hinder a conquering group forcing people to work in the language they are used to, especially as being too close to the Brahmanical hierarchy deprives a ruler of revenue streams and thus disincentivises them to be overly religious. Even if they were to factor in religious prestige into creating the language of their government, Braj carries religious prestige due to being where Krishna was from, Tamil and Telugu carry religious prestige due to the Agamas, so while Sanskrit is a possibility, it is not the only possibility. Once again, neither is religion the only aspect of Indian culture, and neither is Sanskrit the only language of Hindu literature.


Because Bible does written in Latin and it was not Catholic state religious languages only Church languages . Otherwise as seen in Jews they today speak Hebrew when in 2000 years there was not a empire or kingdom in which it spoken as comman languages . It happens due to Hebrew consider as religious languages.
There is functionally no difference between a church language and a religious language. Latin also had the advantage of linking people to the glorious roman past like Sanskrit links them to classical Indic civilisation (not Hindu civilisation, because Sanskrit was used by all religions in classical India) but they still don’t use it. Likewise, you could make the argument that Sanskrit is not the religious language, it is merely the language of the brahmanical elite given the proliferation of Bhakti literature in the vernaculars that gave millions of people a much more personal understanding of their gods- their religious language was avadhi or Bengali or Tamil. Hebrew was only chosen because this was a community where the defining feature was religion, and no group was meant to dominate. In this scenario, it’s an empire, by design a group will dominate and the defining feature of the community is not religion it is the sum total of all Indian culture.


For Pakistan accepting Arabic - they accepted Urdu which is not a local language of Pakistan , imported by central India Muslim leader when it become identify as languages of Muslim
Urdu could never rival Arabic as a Muslim language. Pakistan adopted Urdu for cultural and economic, not religious reasons. They wanted to maintain a linguistic connection between themselves and the vibrancy of Mughal high culture and maintain commercial links with India. Religion was not meant to be the defining feature of Pakistan, given how secular Jinnah was, and it did not represent the entirety of the Pakistani identity.

Your example of Latin in Europe fails to acknowledge that Latin entered a precipitous decline as soon as mass education set in. Latin scholarship was only viable for as long as literacy was restricted to church officials and those with very strong links to the church, but as soon as literacy began to spread the victory of the vernacular was assured. Likewise, as long as literacy was restricted to Brahmins, and those with very strong links to them, Sanskrit scholarship can survive, but by the 19th century, when you’d expect literacy to be spreading like wildfire, Sanskrit cannot but give way to the vernaculars.
 
My point is that the idea of a rigid caste system is literally impossible and despite constant theory hasn’t ever truly existed because it’s impossible to enforce - there are numerous ways to circumvent the theory for those with the means. In the political sphere, caste has very rarely been a barrier in the timespan of generations, just as a european peasant family could move up over generations but probably not all in one.
Nevertheless, what power the system had was maintained because it simply allowed for a stable method of producing workers in various industries owing to the family based training mechanism- before mass education that’s the best way of doing things. Thus as an institution the caste system was on the whole quite beneficial before the British came along and made it racism.
For a meritocracy to work, you need a wide pool of qualified officials, such that you have a true choice in filling positions. It’s a fact of society that those educated by nobles tend to be better qualified than those who aren’t, so unless you’re providing that education to the lower classes as the Mughals did, the labour pool of just the upper castes is more than enough to create a meritocracy and opening it up to the lower classes merely lowers the average.
I somewhat agree with this proposition, that before industrialization and mass education, Caste System was best suited for India as it produced skilled workforce in every field, if Mass education is provided by a Hindu North Indian State, than, we can see the natural erosion of caste system.
Urdu could never rival Arabic as a Muslim language. Pakistan adopted Urdu for cultural and economic, not religious reasons. They wanted to maintain a linguistic connection between themselves and the vibrancy of Mughal high culture and maintain commercial links with India. Religion was not meant to be the defining feature of Pakistan, given how secular Jinnah was, and it did not represent the entirety of the Pakistani identity.

Your example of Latin in Europe fails to acknowledge that Latin entered a precipitous decline as soon as mass education set in. Latin scholarship was only viable for as long as literacy was restricted to church officials and those with very strong links to the church, but as soon as literacy began to spread the victory of the vernacular was assured. Likewise, as long as literacy was restricted to Brahmins, and those with very strong links to them, Sanskrit scholarship can survive, but by the 19th century, when you’d expect literacy to be spreading like wildfire, Sanskrit cannot but give way to the vernaculars.
Urdu was never the language of North West India, where Pakistan lies today, it would imposed by the elite of Pakistan, Ofcourse It will never rival Arabic, but it was a uniting feature of the Indian Muslim Elite, Particularity in North India, and has been successfully imposed across Pakistan
There is functionally no difference between a church language and a religious language. Latin also had the advantage of linking people to the glorious roman past like Sanskrit links them to classical Indic civilisation (not Hindu civilisation, because Sanskrit was used by all religions in classical India) but they still don’t use it. Likewise, you could make the argument that Sanskrit is not the religious language, it is merely the language of the brahmanical elite given the proliferation of Bhakti literature in the vernaculars that gave millions of people a much more personal understanding of their gods- their religious language was avadhi or Bengali or Tamil. Hebrew was only chosen because this was a community where the defining feature was religion, and no group was meant to dominate. In this scenario, it’s an empire, by design a group will dominate and the defining feature of the community is not religion it is the sum total of all Indian culture.
I could see a scenario where a large amount of loan words from Vernacular languages Enter Sanskrit making it a Modern Sanskrit, separate from Classical sanskrit, still though, Sanskrit will be the universally accepted language in United Hindu Empire in India
 
The cultural and geopolitical circumstances that made India are vastly different than what made Europe or China. While you have luck in a power creating a large “Indian Empire,” I don’t see how it could be united religiously and culturally like that. India has lots of geographic barriers and various cultural barriers. There are many different cultural groups in India that speak different languages like Urdu, Hindi, Tamil, Malayalam, Punjabi, etc. The whole modern Indian identity gained traction in opposition to British colonial rule. The modern state of India even with improvements in the education system and administrative system can’t really enforce Hindi, the national language to be spoken by the whole population.

For an anecdotal example, I myself am from Indian descent as both my parents are from state of Kerala. There people primarily speak Malayalam despite the National language being Hindi. These languages are not very mutually intelligible which would be a huge linguistic barrier in this sort of AHC that the OP presented. Most signs and language of instructions are still in Malayalam. The same is true in other provinces as well, with each region having their own cultural practices ans traditions as well.

The term India is largely geographic and the notion of the modern Indian national identity was formed in opposition to the British. This is a similar case with Hinduism. There isn’t a real unified structure for the religion and the modern form we know now was created in the 1800’s.

This situation kinda parallels the unification of Italy in my view. Italy for centuries was fragmented into various polties that formed their own cultures. Italy had various subcultures like Ligurian, Sicilian,Neopolitan, Tuscan, Umbrian, Romagnan, Corsican, Sardinian, etc. not all of these dialects are mutually intelligible. Sardinian for example is considered by some to be a distinct language and is very close to Classical Latin. Not all of the population was in favor of unification and some identified with their localities rather than the idea of Italy. Garubaldi held referendums in the Papal States and many voted in favor of being independent. Southern Italy had its own national identity, and many fled to greener shores after their economy collapsed. Most people in Italy didn’t speak Standard Italian which was based on the Tuscan dialect. But eventually the Italian National ideal finally took hold after many years. Though unlike India, Italy is much smaller and has less people and geographic barriers.

While you could have one Empire conquer the subcontinent I don’t think some sort of homogeneous religious or linguist/ethnic identity could emerge like it did in say China or Japan.
 
The cultural and geopolitical circumstances that made India are vastly different than what made Europe or China. While you have luck in a power creating a large “Indian Empire,” I don’t see how it could be united religiously and culturally like that. India has lots of geographic barriers and various cultural barriers. There are many different cultural groups in India that speak different languages like Urdu, Hindi, Tamil, Malayalam, Punjabi, etc. The whole modern Indian identity gained traction in opposition to British colonial rule. The modern state of India even with improvements in the education system and administrative system can’t really enforce Hindi, the national language to be spoken by the whole population.

For an anecdotal example, I myself am from Indian descent as both my parents are from state of Kerala. There people primarily speak Malayalam despite the National language being Hindi. These languages are not very mutually intelligible which would be a huge linguistic barrier in this sort of AHC that the OP presented. Most signs and language of instructions are still in Malayalam. The same is true in other provinces as well, with each region having their own cultural practices ans traditions as well.

The term India is largely geographic and the notion of the modern Indian national identity was formed in opposition to the British. This is a similar case with Hinduism. There isn’t a real unified structure for the religion and the modern form we know now was created in the 1800’s.

This situation kinda parallels the unification of Italy in my view. Italy for centuries was fragmented into various polties that formed their own cultures. Italy had various subcultures like Ligurian, Sicilian,Neopolitan, Tuscan, Umbrian, Romagnan, Corsican, Sardinian, etc. not all of these dialects are mutually intelligible. Sardinian for example is considered by some to be a distinct language and is very close to Classical Latin. Not all of the population was in favor of unification and some identified with their localities rather than the idea of Italy. Garubaldi held referendums in the Papal States and many voted in favor of being independent. Southern Italy had its own national identity, and many fled to greener shores after their economy collapsed. Most people in Italy didn’t speak Standard Italian which was based on the Tuscan dialect. But eventually the Italian National ideal finally took hold after many years. Though unlike India, Italy is much smaller and has less people and geographic barriers.

While you could have one Empire conquer the subcontinent I don’t think some sort of homogeneous religious or linguist/ethnic identity could emerge like it did in say China or Japan.
Hinduism is not unified, however it still can be used as a unifying force against Turkic or European forces, and the reason why Sanskrit would most likely be lingua franca would be because it would be the religous and cultural language of most of the native religions and all indian languages are heavily influenced by Sanskrit
 
This thread's pretty chaotic but I kinda like how every possible way of fulfulling the AHC is under discussion. To add my bit:

Linguistic 90%
How about a "standardised Indo-Aryan" to act as a 'neo-Sanskrit' of sorts? Or would that be too difficult?

This is just Hindi lmao. And speaking of Hindi/Sanskrit... A major influence on the development of Standard German was the language of the Martin Luther Bible, and Standard Italian is the same Tuscan used by Dante. So it seems like a dialect popular in poetry/religion can become an accepted linguistic standard... however, these dialects were not backed up by literature alone! Tuscany was competitive in Italian finance and farming alike; meanwhile, the Upper Saxon language of the Martin Luther Bible was backed by Saxony's universities, and influenced further by the Franconian of Nuremberg (a sophisticated manufacturing center with investments all over Central Europe).

To dominate India in the way French dominates France, Sanskrit needs to be a language of commerce, or thoroughly take over education, or both. And if Sanskrit is doing all that... As more and more demands were piled on Classical Greek, it simplified into Koine Greek (big differences in grammar and pronunciation). As more demands were piled onto Classical Chinese, Classical Chinese became a written standard only; spoken Chinese continued to evolve into a fluid series of dialects with staggering diversity across space and time. But mutated Greek is still Greek, and mutated Chinese is still Chinese. But is mutated Sanskrit Sanskrit? No; it is now a Prakrit. This is why I do not believe Sanskrit can naturally become the language of 90% unity, any more than Avestan could become the language of Sasanid Persia.

Anyways, few major countries had 90% unity before modern standardized education. The ones that got it seem to have had 90-100% of the population speaking similar dialects, and then one dialect among them evolves into/is declared the standard. With India, there's two big language families, and while the Dravidian languages do take a LOT of loanwords from Sanskrit the grammar is very different.

Even with only 1 language family, there's still the question of why Spanish never dominated Spain as French did France. This can be partly attributed to France being ahead in development until the 1970s, but also to Madrid really not being very economically central to Spain, nowhere near the same extent as Paris was in France.
  • Paris dominated trade/communication routes across northern France, and so despite Parisians never aggressively colonizing the rest of France their language was influential enough to become the effective standard long before the Revolution and the 1800s regimes made everyone learn it.
  • Madrid, despite sitting in the center of a vast zone of Castilian Reconquista colonization/assimilation spanning from Asturias to Cadiz, was also easily outclassed economically by Seville (entry port for Atlantic trade + center of the Guadalquivir farming zone) and Catalonia (Mediterranian manufacturing/crafts hub).
So political unification+aggressive colonization (the "Qin Shi Huang" approach) is not itself the solution to regionalism. Of course, the Ganges will never be as uncompetitive within India as Madrid was within Spain, but there will inevitably be strong regional variation that a standard language will have to overcome.

And it can be overcome... at a political cost. Think about it from the perspective of a 1960s Tamilian (which is easy for me a as a 2020s Tamilian, but I digress): it doesn't matter if Sanskrit is more holy than Hindi, because from your perspective they both present the same challenge to Tamil. They both deny your vernacular a space to grow/exist, and in the worst possible case Tamil may be denigrated by its own native-speakers as a language without relevance to their life and ambitions (a bit like how, unfortunately, the Sindhi language is seen among Indian Sindhis today). It may seem a little less reasonable to be paranoid about that nowadays, when the future of Tamil is assured (artistic production is prolific, strong locally-based business scene) but in the 1960s when people still didn't know what exactly India was going to be like in sixty years it should seem more understandable.

Urdu was never the language of North West India, where Pakistan lies today, it would imposed by the elite of Pakistan, Ofcourse It will never rival Arabic, but it was a uniting feature of the Indian Muslim Elite, Particularity in North India, and has been successfully imposed across Pakistan

True, but while Urdu was always the plan, it would have been harder to implement if Urdu hadn't taken over Karachi. As it was, the incoming Mohajirs replaced the outgoing Sindhi Hindus, and suddenly Pakistan's temporary capital was dominated by people who were already somewhat used to Urdu. It also failed to take over Dhaka, with the expected consequences for Bengal. A similar dynamic can be seen in Indonesia, where even though the spread of Indonesian owes a lot to the state education system it was already the dominant language of Batavia's bazaars before that.

Religious 90%

The consensus seems to be that this requires an absence of Islam; I partly agree (small Muslim seafarer communities along the western coast don't represent a challenge to 90% unity; invasion across the Indus does). Hinduism is a big-tent label to the point where even Sikhism with its evident Sufi influence wasn't too far outside the mainstream until it explicitly set itself apart in the 1870s. Meanwhile even local cults like Puri Jagannath lean on pan-Hindu terminology heavily. It's possible that all Indic religions end up considered part of the same/similar traditions even in a world without Islam to offer a contrasting case.

The trouble is that the Indus Valley was invaded so often (Scythians, Parthian House of Suren, Kushans, Hunas, on and on) that eventually someone was going to do it who also had a religion that they wanted everyone else to know about. Unless some Indian empire also governs Afghanistan, or some state that doesn't care about converting people (Sasanid Persia?) holds Afghanistan on India's behalf, the Indus cannot be defended unless you turn Punjab into a wasteland bereft of roads or bridges.

Political 100%
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The core of China can be considered as the sum of the following regions:
  • The North China Plain. During the Shang and Zhou eras (before 500 BC more or less) this area was synonymous with China. At the time, Chinese culture did not exist to any appreciable extent outside of it.
  • The Western Mountains (Shanxi/Shaanxi). In the era of the Qin and Han, this area was sometimes called Guanzhong ("within the [mountain] passes"). When those passes are adequately guarded, the area is a giant castle. The Qin took advantage of this to stay safe while they conquered the rest of China. This area remained the center of every all-China government until the fall of the Northern Song.
  • The South. Today, it's the most economically dynamic part of China-- inklings of its future greatness were evident from the Tang onward. However, back in the era of the Zhou it wasn't even part of China. The Qin and Han began subjugating the locals, but without a firm grasp on the coast all they were left with was the inland hills-- which remain somewhat isolated and contain large non-Han minorities even today. Meanwhile, the coast (the most prosperous and "Chinese" part) was settled not in any orderly fashion but by waves of refugees fleeing steppe invasions of the north from the 300s to... well, arguably the 1700s (Hakka migrating south amid the Qing takeover). Culturally, it took a while for the region to even consider itself as anything but "Northerners, but moved down South".
The logic of reassembling China after a period of disorder was remarkably consistent for over a millennium and a half: he who controls Guanzhong controls the northern plain, and he who dominates the northern plain dominates the southern coast. Even when the south became prosperous enough to pay for the maintenance of an independent southern state, the military inequality between a united north and a united south (north has more horses, more soldiers, flatter terrain for faster road transport, etc.) means that:
  • the north is not that hard to unite, and a united north will eventually defeat and take over a united south.
  • if a southern regime is to guarantee its survival, it must destroy the north before it unites. This has happened twice: the Ming conquest of northern Mongol warlords propping up a failing Yuan dynasty, and the KMT conquest of northern Chinese warlords propping up a failing Republic.
All of this might still be overcome, if not for the strong economic links across China (symbolized by the Grand Canal), the Imperial conception of China as an all-encompassing earthly order, and the Han conception of themselves as a people of common ancestry, customs, and destiny.

***

India, however, does not have any such hierarchy of regions-- multiple states can exist without being a mortal threat to each other, and no region is drastically more defensible/prosperous than any other. There's wars, sure, but regions can hold each other off for a long time. Even during the height of the Gupta dynasty they still had a Deccan rival, the Vakataka dynasty. A lot of grand imperial conflicts in India seem to end in something more like mutual exhaustion: the Palas and Rashtrakutas competing over Kannauj for two hundred years before both being replaced by other dynasties due to unrelated causes, or Vijayanagar first causing the Bahmani sultanate to collapse before getting destroyed itself by the 4 biggest fragments. All that aside, it's not impossible for a native power to bring these regions under one flag, it's happened several times-- but:
  • regions will inevitably have high autonomy. Nowadays we call it federalism, but even back then a region with leverage would be able to make its own rules. The Paramaras, a dynasty governing Madhya Pradesh, were key to the Rashtrakuta ambition of reaching the Ganges. When the Rashtrakutas finally collapsed, the Paramaras went on to found their own kingdom with one or two successor dynasties before the Muslim conquest. Bengal also pretty much ruled a sub-empire within the Mughal empire, with the Nawab of Bengal treating lordship over Bihar and Orissa as a natural right. And then there's the 4 great sub-dynasties of the Maratha realm.
  • if it breaks again it might stay broken for a long while.

Also, the existence of multiple Indian states, more than the existence of multiple Chinese states, is seen as natural. As stated before, even a South-Chinese Han will admit that their cultural patrimony, and probably most of their ancestry, is of northern origin. However, by the time Gangetic states were in a condition to open up new areas for settlement, these areas were already home to local dynasties (and I don't just mean Dravidians, I mean the Deccan Aryans too) who tried to fit within a larger Indian religious/political/philosophical order but also put their own spin on it-- they patronized literature and art styles to foster a sense of distinctiveness. So maybe if the culture of the Ganges is worse at expanding and adapting itself to local conditions, then maybe you could get to a point where a Gangetic empire looks out and sees uncivilized areas in need of colonists? But how to get that many people to move around? China's answer was often "if conditions in the north are really bad, people will move south."
 
This thread's pretty chaotic but I kinda like how every possible way of fulfulling the AHC is under discussion. To add my bit:

Linguistic 90%


This is just Hindi lmao. And speaking of Hindi/Sanskrit... A major influence on the development of Standard German was the language of the Martin Luther Bible, and Standard Italian is the same Tuscan used by Dante. So it seems like a dialect popular in poetry/religion can become an accepted linguistic standard... however, these dialects were not backed up by literature alone! Tuscany was competitive in Italian finance and farming alike; meanwhile, the Upper Saxon language of the Martin Luther Bible was backed by Saxony's universities, and influenced further by the Franconian of Nuremberg (a sophisticated manufacturing center with investments all over Central Europe).

To dominate India in the way French dominates France, Sanskrit needs to be a language of commerce, or thoroughly take over education, or both. And if Sanskrit is doing all that... As more and more demands were piled on Classical Greek, it simplified into Koine Greek (big differences in grammar and pronunciation). As more demands were piled onto Classical Chinese, Classical Chinese became a written standard only; spoken Chinese continued to evolve into a fluid series of dialects with staggering diversity across space and time. But mutated Greek is still Greek, and mutated Chinese is still Chinese. But is mutated Sanskrit Sanskrit? No; it is now a Prakrit. This is why I do not believe Sanskrit can naturally become the language of 90% unity, any more than Avestan could become the language of Sasanid Persia.

Anyways, few major countries had 90% unity before modern standardized education. The ones that got it seem to have had 90-100% of the population speaking similar dialects, and then one dialect among them evolves into/is declared the standard. With India, there's two big language families, and while the Dravidian languages do take a LOT of loanwords from Sanskrit the grammar is very different.

Even with only 1 language family, there's still the question of why Spanish never dominated Spain as French did France. This can be partly attributed to France being ahead in development until the 1970s, but also to Madrid really not being very economically central to Spain, nowhere near the same extent as Paris was in France.
  • Paris dominated trade/communication routes across northern France, and so despite Parisians never aggressively colonizing the rest of France their language was influential enough to become the effective standard long before the Revolution and the 1800s regimes made everyone learn it.
  • Madrid, despite sitting in the center of a vast zone of Castilian Reconquista colonization/assimilation spanning from Asturias to Cadiz, was also easily outclassed economically by Seville (entry port for Atlantic trade + center of the Guadalquivir farming zone) and Catalonia (Mediterranian manufacturing/crafts hub).
So political unification+aggressive colonization (the "Qin Shi Huang" approach) is not itself the solution to regionalism. Of course, the Ganges will never be as uncompetitive within India as Madrid was within Spain, but there will inevitably be strong regional variation that a standard language will have to overcome.

And it can be overcome... at a political cost. Think about it from the perspective of a 1960s Tamilian (which is easy for me a as a 2020s Tamilian, but I digress): it doesn't matter if Sanskrit is more holy than Hindi, because from your perspective they both present the same challenge to Tamil. They both deny your vernacular a space to grow/exist, and in the worst possible case Tamil may be denigrated by its own native-speakers as a language without relevance to their life and ambitions (a bit like how, unfortunately, the Sindhi language is seen among Indian Sindhis today). It may seem a little less reasonable to be paranoid about that nowadays, when the future of Tamil is assured (artistic production is prolific, strong locally-based business scene) but in the 1960s when people still didn't know what exactly India was going to be like in sixty years it should seem more understandable.



True, but while Urdu was always the plan, it would have been harder to implement if Urdu hadn't taken over Karachi. As it was, the incoming Mohajirs replaced the outgoing Sindhi Hindus, and suddenly Pakistan's temporary capital was dominated by people who were already somewhat used to Urdu. It also failed to take over Dhaka, with the expected consequences for Bengal. A similar dynamic can be seen in Indonesia, where even though the spread of Indonesian owes a lot to the state education system it was already the dominant language of Batavia's bazaars before that.

Religious 90%

The consensus seems to be that this requires an absence of Islam; I partly agree (small Muslim seafarer communities along the western coast don't represent a challenge to 90% unity; invasion across the Indus does). Hinduism is a big-tent label to the point where even Sikhism with its evident Sufi influence wasn't too far outside the mainstream until it explicitly set itself apart in the 1870s. Meanwhile even local cults like Puri Jagannath lean on pan-Hindu terminology heavily. It's possible that all Indic religions end up considered part of the same/similar traditions even in a world without Islam to offer a contrasting case.

The trouble is that the Indus Valley was invaded so often (Scythians, Parthian House of Suren, Kushans, Hunas, on and on) that eventually someone was going to do it who also had a religion that they wanted everyone else to know about. Unless some Indian empire also governs Afghanistan, or some state that doesn't care about converting people (Sasanid Persia?) holds Afghanistan on India's behalf, the Indus cannot be defended unless you turn Punjab into a wasteland bereft of roads or bridges.

Political 100%
View attachment 533621
The core of China can be considered as the sum of the following regions:
  • The North China Plain. During the Shang and Zhou eras (before 500 BC more or less) this area was synonymous with China. At the time, Chinese culture did not exist to any appreciable extent outside of it.
  • The Western Mountains (Shanxi/Shaanxi). In the era of the Qin and Han, this area was sometimes called Guanzhong ("within the [mountain] passes"). When those passes are adequately guarded, the area is a giant castle. The Qin took advantage of this to stay safe while they conquered the rest of China. This area remained the center of every all-China government until the fall of the Northern Song.
  • The South. Today, it's the most economically dynamic part of China-- inklings of its future greatness were evident from the Tang onward. However, back in the era of the Zhou it wasn't even part of China. The Qin and Han began subjugating the locals, but without a firm grasp on the coast all they were left with was the inland hills-- which remain somewhat isolated and contain large non-Han minorities even today. Meanwhile, the coast (the most prosperous and "Chinese" part) was settled not in any orderly fashion but by waves of refugees fleeing steppe invasions of the north from the 300s to... well, arguably the 1700s (Hakka migrating south amid the Qing takeover). Culturally, it took a while for the region to even consider itself as anything but "Northerners, but moved down South".
The logic of reassembling China after a period of disorder was remarkably consistent for over a millennium and a half: he who controls Guanzhong controls the northern plain, and he who dominates the northern plain dominates the southern coast. Even when the south became prosperous enough to pay for the maintenance of an independent southern state, the military inequality between a united north and a united south (north has more horses, more soldiers, flatter terrain for faster road transport, etc.) means that:
  • the north is not that hard to unite, and a united north will eventually defeat and take over a united south.
  • if a southern regime is to guarantee its survival, it must destroy the north before it unites. This has happened twice: the Ming conquest of northern Mongol warlords propping up a failing Yuan dynasty, and the KMT conquest of northern Chinese warlords propping up a failing Republic.
All of this might still be overcome, if not for the strong economic links across China (symbolized by the Grand Canal), the Imperial conception of China as an all-encompassing earthly order, and the Han conception of themselves as a people of common ancestry, customs, and destiny.

***

India, however, does not have any such hierarchy of regions-- multiple states can exist without being a mortal threat to each other, and no region is drastically more defensible/prosperous than any other. There's wars, sure, but regions can hold each other off for a long time. Even during the height of the Gupta dynasty they still had a Deccan rival, the Vakataka dynasty. A lot of grand imperial conflicts in India seem to end in something more like mutual exhaustion: the Palas and Rashtrakutas competing over Kannauj for two hundred years before both being replaced by other dynasties due to unrelated causes, or Vijayanagar first causing the Bahmani sultanate to collapse before getting destroyed itself by the 4 biggest fragments. All that aside, it's not impossible for a native power to bring these regions under one flag, it's happened several times-- but:
  • regions will inevitably have high autonomy. Nowadays we call it federalism, but even back then a region with leverage would be able to make its own rules. The Paramaras, a dynasty governing Madhya Pradesh, were key to the Rashtrakuta ambition of reaching the Ganges. When the Rashtrakutas finally collapsed, the Paramaras went on to found their own kingdom with one or two successor dynasties before the Muslim conquest. Bengal also pretty much ruled a sub-empire within the Mughal empire, with the Nawab of Bengal treating lordship over Bihar and Orissa as a natural right. And then there's the 4 great sub-dynasties of the Maratha realm.
  • if it breaks again it might stay broken for a long while.

Also, the existence of multiple Indian states, more than the existence of multiple Chinese states, is seen as natural. As stated before, even a South-Chinese Han will admit that their cultural patrimony, and probably most of their ancestry, is of northern origin. However, by the time Gangetic states were in a condition to open up new areas for settlement, these areas were already home to local dynasties (and I don't just mean Dravidians, I mean the Deccan Aryans too) who tried to fit within a larger Indian religious/political/philosophical order but also put their own spin on it-- they patronized literature and art styles to foster a sense of distinctiveness. So maybe if the culture of the Ganges is worse at expanding and adapting itself to local conditions, then maybe you could get to a point where a Gangetic empire looks out and sees uncivilized areas in need of colonists? But how to get that many people to move around? China's answer was often "if conditions in the north are really bad, people will move south."
Really well written, wanted to ask a few things -
1. Sanskrit will most likely evolve into a simpler form of sanskrit, used by commoners, while Original Sanskrit will still be preserved for rituals and other ceremonies
2. Religiously, we could see a pan North Indian empire against Islamic invasions or we can see a Hindu reconquista or allaince against islamic turkic raiders
3. Politically, Its up for debate, what do you think that can unite the region
 
@LostInNewDelhi wow, id like to echo the earlier comment of that being a very concise, well argued series of points that really show your understanding. Thanks for that tidbit on the Sikh identity in the 1870s, i had no idea it took them so long to fully separate themselves.
And yes I do agree, vernacular languages are cool and it’s so cool when linguistic diversity is celebrated and maintained.
Sanskrit will most likely evolve into a simpler form of sanskrit, used by commoners, while Original Sanskrit will still be preserved for rituals and other ceremonies
As mentioned above, Sanskrit as a language is very conservative- you must stick incredibly closely to the grammar and vocabulary mandated in the preclassical era. Anything less, and it simply would not be recognised as Sanskrit, the one true language of gods- a Prakrit maybe but a simplified Sanskrit is a contradiction in terms.
 
@LostInNewDelhi wow, id like to echo the earlier comment of that being a very concise, well argued series of points that really show your understanding. Thanks for that tidbit on the Sikh identity in the 1870s, i had no idea it took them so long to fully separate themselves.
And yes I do agree, vernacular languages are cool and it’s so cool when linguistic diversity is celebrated and maintained.

As mentioned above, Sanskrit as a language is very conservative- you must stick incredibly closely to the grammar and vocabulary mandated in the preclassical era. Anything less, and it simply would not be recognised as Sanskrit, the one true language of gods- a Prakrit maybe but a simplified Sanskrit is a contradiction in terms.
Perhaps sanskrit evolves like arabic, where there is a large difference between speakers in different regions as well as with original sanskrit, but they all come under one Sanskrit umbrella
 
Perhaps sanskrit evolves like arabic, where there is a large difference between speakers in different regions as well as with original sanskrit, but they all come under one Sanskrit umbrella

If Book Arabic is equivalent to Latin or Sanskrit, then the colloquial Arabic dialects are equivalent to the other Romance languages, or the other Indo-Aryan languages. In which case, there isn't much difference to OTL to begin with.
 
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