AHC: Unite Bourbon France and Spain

Socrates

With a POD after 1750, the challenge is to unite Bourbon France and Spain into a single state by 1900. I presume some sort of monarch taking the French Revolution in a different direction is the best way to do it.

Bonus points if Portugal is annexed at some point.

(Yes, I know it's easier to go back to the War of the Spanish Succession, but I've deliberately excluded this, so any other poster bringing it up gets a slap round the face with a wet fish.)
 

dgharis

Socrates said:
With a POD after 1750, the challenge is to unite Bourbon France and Spain into a single state by 1900. I presume some sort of monarch taking the French Revolution in a different direction is the best way to do it.

Bonus points if Portugal is annexed at some point.

(Yes, I know it's easier to go back to the War of the Spanish Succession, but I've deliberately excluded this, so any other poster bringing it up gets a slap round the face with a wet fish.)
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After 1750 is probably too late; with Louis XV on the throne and his son set to follow him we have the worst possible combination of rulers for France. In those circumstances the Bourbons are doomed. If we get rid of them, are their replacements going to be any better? If they are, can they salvage the wrecked economy and get France back on its feet without alienating their supporters?

If the new King survives all that (fat chance) then at some future point when the Spanish monarchy self destructs the French King can arrange for his heir to inherit the Spanish throne as well as the French and unite them in his person. That is going to be the only form of union possible; a true political union will be impossible within the time given in the OP given the vast differences between the two cultures.
 

Richter von Manthofen

I think the union would lead to another war of the spanish sucession. UK, Austria and (probably Prussia) would strongly oppose this (maybe NL too). Russia might side wi´th France if it gains something in thenWest (Parts of Poland,..)
 

Socrates

What about the monarchy surviving the revolution? A reformed royalist France with Napoleon's army would be pretty strong no? I was imagining something like Spain becoming a puppet state for decades until it was eventually annexed...
 

LordKalvan

It is a bit of a stretch (and maybe more than a bit), but:
- Juan Carlos count of Montizon, the Carlist pretender to the throne, manages to make good his claim and becomes king of Spain in 1868. Surprisingly enough, he even manages to hold to the throne and ends up being accepted as the king of Spain by his subjects.
- Notwithstanding this internal solution of the Spanish succession crisis, France and Prussia go to war in 1870 as per schedule. The war goes even worse for the French, for whatever reason (which may or may not include an Italian intervention on the side of Prussia). The outcome is that it takes more effort to repress the communard insurrection, and more division is create among the French. This emboldens the monarchist party, and Henri de Chambord avoids the bouts of stupidity that ruined his chances IOTL. A compromise is found on the flag, and possibly the Orleanist pretender to the thorne is accepted by Henri as his successor (however if this happens, Henri and Philippe d'Orleans will find some way to fight each other in the next few years, with the result that Philippe is removed from the succession).
- Now the former count of Montizon and present king of Spain is again the prospective successor to the throne of France.
- By the grace of God and a number of minor miracles Henri stays on the throne of France until his death in 1883, notwithstanding being a reactionary dinosaur (and Juan in Spain manages to do the same, being just slightly less of a dinosaur).
- Upon the death of Henri, Juan makes good his claim, is accepted by the National Assembly and takes the french throne as Jean (and the other European powers do not object to this nor the French raise in revolution at having a Spanish king on the throne: suspension of disbelief is the key)
- The thrones of France and Spain are now in personal union, at least until the death of Juan/Jean which is just a few years away. Afterwards, the thrones may be split again, with the sons of Juan taking a crown each. Or maybe not and the dual monarchy of France and Spain lasts for decades and decades.

Anyway, the OP is achieved: France and Spain are under a single king in 1883.
 

LordKalvan

Richter von Manthofen said:
No way a victorious Germany would accept this (and even UK would not want that the power balance is broken this way...)
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Didn't I say "suspension of disbelief is the key?".
Anyway the opposition of the European powers is the least of the problems (after all the nomination of king Juan of Spain as heir to the French throne would be negotiated in the frame of an alt-Congress of Berlin, at the end of the 1870s; and one of the condition might be that the personal union ends with the death of Juan: each one of his sons gets a different crown).

The real problem is to successfully put a Carlist on the Spanish throne as well as to keep france quiet under a reactionary dinosaur as Henri de Chambord (not to mention the difficulties to have a Spanish Bourbon accepted as king of France)
 

alex costa

It's very implausible that the French and Spanish thrones would unite, just because all of the other great powers would simply not allow that. So very implausible however if it does happen. Francoiberia (for the sake of it Portugal gets annexed) would be a pretty powerful state
 

Cináed

Would the other states be *that* upset, though?

If the monarchy itself is reduced in power, I could see other European powers accepting such an arrangement grudgingly (particularly Britain if such a theoretically-strengthened-but-not-strengthened France provides a counterweight to Germany). Any objection would most likely come from Berlin, given that the Germans would likely have to deal with the combined armies of France and Spain in any war.

Such an arrangement would be more likely to collapse from internal strains rather than external ones from what I can see. I don't know how close you could tie France and Spain without them chafing against eachother.
 

Simreeve

Cináed said:
Would the other states be *that* upset, though?

If the monarchy itself is reduced in power, I could see other European powers accepting such an arrangement grudgingly (particularly Britain if such a theoretically-strengthened-but-not-strengthened France provides a counterweight to Germany). Any objection would most likely come from Berlin, given that the Germans would likely have to deal with the combined armies of France and Spain in any war.
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Britain accepting that union as a potential counterweight to Germany I could maybe see -- at least if the government didn't decide that trying to maintain that union would actually weaken France still further instead -- but I'm sure that we'd have protected Portuguese independence against it.
 

Socrates

Could you go the other way in the international relations sphere? Have another POD preventing Prussia rising to power, and no-one else strong enough to stop it happening? Russia is allied with France, is too far away to be threatened by the union, and would quite like someone to challenge the British at sea and an ally against the Habsburgs on the continent.
 
DrakeRlugia

DrakeRlugia

If the prospective governments have enough power, I can see them accepting it. After all, a personal union is just that in the 19th century: a union of two crowns in an era where their power is quick fading. Assuming the Spanish and French Parliaments continue to exist as do separate governments, it shouldn't be a big deal. It'd be a bit difficult to swallow, but they can look to Austria-Hungary as to how things rolled when a monarch occupies two thrones. Of course, Hungary was long part of the Habsburg orbit before 1867, but I assume there would still be separate governments. I don't know if Juan would have to power to create any dual ministries, so it could be kind of messy.
 

LordKalvan

Frankly the biggest difficulty would be convince the French to get a Spanish king; the second biggest difficulty would be for Juan and Henri (who were not the sharpest tools on the rack by any account) to keep the throne without being deposed by a revolution or a coup. Say that Henri takes the throne in 1872, without making a mess with his OTL refusal of the tricolore and accepting to nominate Philippe d'Orleans as his heir (strangely enough, the latter appears to have been easier for him than the former). Then he has to politically survive for 11 years which will by necessity include at least a major political crisis (the removal of Philip from the roll of succession, for whatever reason) and a diplomatic crisis (convincing the other European powers to accept a Franco-Spanish dual monarchy). Incidentally, the removal of Philippe from the succession automatically designate Juan as heir to the throne. I'd believe that (as a minimum) the Assemblee Nationale will require that Juan will keep separate governments in Paris and Madrid and that Juan/Jean promise to reside in Paris for half of the time; they may even require that the French throne devolves automatically to Juan's second son upon majority.

Juan has also his problems in Spain, where he's far from being the king of everyone. If he plays the role of the reactionary king, he displeases the majority of Spaniards. If he trys to give some concession to the progressives the Carlists will bay for his blood. Gaining the throne in 1868, he'll have to dance on the rope for some 15 years before sitting on the French throne too. I would not really know how the Spaniards of the time will take the notion that their king will also be the king of France, but I would not be surprised if this would not really be to their taste.
 

jkarr

last best chance was for the french/spainish to win the spainish war of sucession...after that its really too late...less you have the spainish repell the napoleonic forces an seize the throne of france, mabye giving some parts back to great britian and austria/prussia....never said that france had to be the same size it was
 

dgharis

jkarr said:
last best chance was for the french/spainish to win the spainish war of sucession...after that its really too late...less you have the spainish repell the napoleonic forces an seize the throne of france, mabye giving some parts back to great britian and austria/prussia....never said that france had to be the same size it was
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Unless the other powers help out A LOT Spain has as much chance of taking Paris (which would be required for them to get the throne) as I do of defeating the current heavyweight boxing champ; somewhere between zero and nil. IOTL they had Napoleon and the majority of his troops tied down in Central and Eastern Europe, the best Coalition general going directing their efforts, and they still didn't get further than Toulouse.
 

Simreeve

dgharis said:
Unless the other powers help out A LOT Spain has as much chance of taking Paris (which would be required for them to get the throne) as I do of defeating the current heavyweight boxing champ; somewhere between zero and nil. IOTL they had Napoleon and the majority of his troops tied down in Central and Eastern Europe, the best Coalition general going directing their efforts, and they still didn't get further than Toulouse.
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Actually, Wellington didn't even let any Spanish troops accompany him past the border: He knew that if he did then they'd plunder (for food, apart from anything else) and probably commit other atrocities against the French, and he preferred not to have to deal with guerilla activity as well as the conventional warfare himself.
 

Faralis

Simreeve said:
Actually, Wellington didn't even let any Spanish troops accompany him past the border: He knew that if he did then they'd plunder (for food, apart from anything else) and probably commit other atrocities against the French, and he preferred not to have to deal with guerilla activity as well as the conventional warfare himself.
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Err AFAIK they did cross with him ... the regular army that is, obviously the guerrillas stayed in Spain ( they were useless in unfamiliar terrain )
 

Simreeve

LSCatilina said:
This can help.
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Ah, I see. If that article is correct then Wellington didn't take Spanish troops across the border with him but did send for them -- at a time when he needed reinforcements and his own supply arrangements were capable of expanding to cope with feeding these -- a bit later on.
 
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