AHC- Unified Caribbean Nation

SunDeep

Banned
Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to come up with an ATL in which the entirety of the Caribbean archipelago is controlled by a single Caribbean nation. How would you go about accomplishing this? And what would be the best POD to use?
 
What would be POD?

Probably best way would be that England/United Kingdom is somehow able to take whole Caribbean. Bit difficult, I admit, but not impossible. Then there could be later independent federation.
 
I think the easiest way would be a Spanish colony. Spain takes the whole Caribbean, possibly seizing other nations' colonies in a successful war. Perhaps an alternate War of Jenkins' Ear with a crushing Spanish victory and seizure of British colonies, but that doesn't account for French Haiti or the Dutch Antilles. An earlier POD might be better - possibly before the Treaty of Ryswick divides Hispaniola, and before the British take Jamaica from the Spanish.

Then, the Caribbean goes independent during the Spanish American Wars of Independence in the early 19th Century. It still seems to me more likely that it will split into multiple nations rather than one, though. Perhaps a confederacy of sorts?
 

SunDeep

Banned
I'm just putting this out there, but what about an ATL where the Haitian Revolution is more successful, with the split between L'Ouverture and Rigaud and the subsequent War Of Knives never taking place? ITTL, without the internal divisions ripping the fledgling nation apart, might it be feasible for the Haitians to repel Leclerc's expeditionary force, gaining international recognition and securing its independence in the same manner as the USA (with Haiti encompassing the Dominican Republic as well at this stage)? ITTL, could the Caribbean people potential unify themselves, rather being unified for administrative purposes by a more dominant colonial power. Their success would encourage more slave revolts across the Caribbean, with any other slave populations who do carry out successful rebellions being offered a place in L'Ouverture's new Caribbean Federation. It may be far-fetched, but I do still feel that it's marginally feasible, and it would certainly be an interesting TL.
 
I'm just putting this out there, but what about an ATL where the Haitian Revolution is more successful, with the split between L'Ouverture and Rigaud and the subsequent War Of Knives never taking place? ITTL, without the internal divisions ripping the fledgling nation apart, might it be feasible for the Haitians to repel Leclerc's expeditionary force, gaining international recognition and securing its independence in the same manner as the USA (with Haiti encompassing the Dominican Republic as well at this stage)? ITTL, could the Caribbean people potential unify themselves, rather being unified for administrative purposes by a more dominant colonial power. Their success would encourage more slave revolts across the Caribbean, with any other slave populations who do carry out successful rebellions being offered a place in L'Ouverture's new Caribbean Federation. It may be far-fetched, but I do still feel that it's marginally feasible, and it would certainly be an interesting TL.

In 1804, there was basically no way Haiti could get international recognition. The last thing the Western world wanted to see at that time was a black republic.
 

SunDeep

Banned
In 1804, there was basically no way Haiti could get international recognition. The last thing the Western world wanted to see at that time was a black republic.

It still succeeded in 1804 even IOTL though, didn't it? And without the War of Knives, with unified leadership, how much better placed would the Haitian Republic be to resist French aggression? Don't discount the possibility just because they'd be a 'black republic'...
 
It still succeeded in 1804 even IOTL though, didn't it? And without the War of Knives, with unified leadership, how much better placed would the Haitian Republic be to resist French aggression? Don't discount the possibility just because they'd be a 'black republic'...

The black republic thing can't be hand-waved away. Seeing Haiti succeed was the last thing slaveholding countries wanted. Haiti was completely isolated diplomatically for decades.

The Haitian Revolution succeeded in the very specific context of a war against a colonial power that was undergoing its own series of regime changes and which was at war itself with the leading maritime power (Britain), whose naval blockades made it difficult to send in reinforcements. Even then, were it not for the yellow fever epidemic of 1802-03, France probably would have defeated the Haitian forces. (All things considered, the story of the Haitian Revolution reads like an AH timeline.)

Britain was willing to muck things up for the French on Saint-Domingue, but it had no plans whatsoever to recognize Haitian independence, and certainly would have crushed any Haitian attempt to try to conquer neighboring islands. How is a Haiti that has no navy, and no money to create one, going to conquer Cuba or Jamaica? The most Haiti could realistically hope to conquer was what it did in 1821, when it conquered the eastern part of Hispaniola (which it went on to lose in 1844).
 
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SunDeep

Banned
The black republic thing can't be hand-waved away. Seeing Haiti succeed was the last thing slaveholding countries wanted. Haiti was completely isolated diplomatically for decades.

The Haitian Revolution succeeded in the very specific context of a war against a colonial power that was undergoing its own series of regime changes and which was at war itself with the leading maritime power (Britain), whose naval blockades made it difficult to send in reinforcements. Even then, were it not for the yellow fever epidemic of 1802-03, France probably would have defeated the Haitian forces. (All things considered, the story of the Haitian Revolution reads like an AH timeline.)

Britain was willing to muck things up for the French on Saint-Domingue, but it had no plans whatsoever to recognize Haitian independence, and certainly would have crushed any Haitian attempt to try to conquer neighboring islands. How is a Haiti that has no navy, and no money to create one, going to conquer Cuba or Jamaica? The most Haiti could realistically hope to conquer was what it did in 1821, when it conquered the eastern part of Hispaniola (which it went on to lose in 1844).

I'm not suggesting that they would be able to conquer other islands. I'm just suggesting that a more successful Haiti (/Hispaniola), one which isn't crippled by war debts to the French for the first 150 years of its existence, may be capable of eventually unifying them, once the other islands do inevitably achieve independence on their own. Think of it as a Caribbean contemporary to Gran Columbia or the United States of Central America; or alternatively, as a version of CARICOM which comes into being before the EU, and achieves political union in the same manner as the proposed East African Federation prior to the present day. Isn't this at least slightly feasible?
 
I'm not suggesting that they would be able to conquer other islands. I'm just suggesting that a more successful Haiti (/Hispaniola), one which isn't crippled by war debts to the French for the first 150 years of its existence, may be capable of eventually unifying them, once the other islands do inevitably achieve independence on their own. Think of it as a Caribbean contemporary to Gran Columbia or the United States of Central America; or alternatively, as a version of CARICOM which comes into being before the EU, and achieves political union in the same manner as the proposed East African Federation prior to the present day. Isn't this at least slightly feasible?

OK, that is somewhat plausible, but I don't think we could see much more than a very loose arrangement, like the European Community before it became the EU. The diversity of languages/cultures in the Caribbean would make political union pretty hard to imagine. Even the anglophone islands alone couldn't make the West Indies Federation work out.
 

SunDeep

Banned
OK, that is somewhat plausible, but I don't think we could see much more than a very loose arrangement, like the European Community before it became the EU. The diversity of languages/cultures in the Caribbean would make political union pretty hard to imagine. Even the anglophone islands alone couldn't make the West Indies Federation work out.

The anglophone islands couldn't make the West Indies Federation work for several reasons, and cultural and linguistic diversity wasn't one of them. Jamaica felt left out, distanced from the rest of the WIF by hundreds of miles and grossly under-represented in the WIF parliament. And in spite of their promises, the UK refused to grant independence to the WIF for 7 years, so eventually the Jamaicans broke away to pursue independence on their own. There's no real animosity between the nations in the Caribbean- certainly, nowhere near the levels of historical animosity that the EU had to overcome in the course of its own integration. Hispaniola is the clear center of the Caribbean, geographically and demographically; if any Caribbean nation could unify the region, it'd be a successful Haiti. Unless anyone else can come up with their own better suggestions to fulfil this AHC, rather than simply dismissing it as impossible...?
 
I think the only real possibility would be to have Spain, or someone else but Spain seems most likely, to me far more aggressive colonizing and defending the Caribbean than they were OTL. So, you end up with Cuba, Hispanola, Jamaica and the Antilles all under Spanish control. When independence movements begin in South America, maybe there is one in the Viceroyalty of the Caribbean. A single charismatic individual could possibly form a Republic of the Caribbean, particularly if the islands had all been unified under a common colonial government and a common language. The parliament would have to be equal in some way, maybe breaking the larger islands up electorally so the smaller ones were not dominated by Cuba and the others.

I'm not well versed in colonial Caribbean history, so I have no idea who could have done this. Admittedly, the thought of Fidel Castro being elected president of the Caribbean Republic is fun for me.
 
1. Go back further in history when the Taino are still around. Develop the Taino to Aztec and Inca levels of civilization. Perhaps an outside threat conquers them, but the Greater Antilles maintain clear ethnic Taino majority populations, speak the Taino language, and eventually join together. The Lesser Antilles come along for the ride in attempt to pacify the Caribs. Island Carib is derived from the Taino language anyway, so it wouldn't be too difficult to bring them into the fold.

2. A harsher and more reluctant United Kingdom pisses off its Caribbean colonies, which turn to some kind of powerful Fidel Castro / Che Guevara / Muammar Qaddafi figure hailing from Cuba or the Dominican Republic for support in revolutionary movements. Somewhere down the line you get a league of Caribbean countries forming an EU-like organization that eventually becomes a unified country (like the vision that Qaddafi had for Africa), with Cuba or the Dominican Republic in the lead.
 

SunDeep

Banned
1. Go back further in history when the Taino are still around. Develop the Taino to Aztec and Inca levels of civilization. Perhaps an outside threat conquers them, but the Greater Antilles maintain clear ethnic Taino majority populations, speak the Taino language, and eventually join together. The Lesser Antilles come along for the ride in attempt to pacify the Caribs. Island Carib is derived from the Taino language anyway, so it wouldn't be too difficult to bring them into the fold.

2. A harsher and more reluctant United Kingdom pisses off its Caribbean colonies, which turn to some kind of powerful Fidel Castro / Che Guevara / Muammar Qaddafi figure hailing from Cuba or the Dominican Republic for support in revolutionary movements. Somewhere down the line you get a league of Caribbean countries forming an EU-like organization that eventually becomes a unified country (like the vision that Qaddafi had for Africa), with Cuba or the Dominican Republic in the lead.

Good suggestions. Either of these options would make for a pretty awesome TL... (along with ChewyGranola's Spanish suggestion. That'd be pretty :cool: as well...)
 

Deleted member 67076

You don't need a POD all the way back in the colonial era, although that would be preferred. You might be able to do one in the '50s. Now, the WIF probably would do a lot better if Britain allowed it to become Greater Jamaica/Trinidad, or took the opposite approach and disregarded population entirely.

Sort of like the conventions during the formation of the US government.

Even if the WIF failed, you can have another shot at this with CARICOM's predecessor, the Caribbean Free Trade Agreement, by turning it into a miniature version of the EEC, and eventually paving the way for CARICOM to become a mini EU that eventually federalizes. Should this appear successful, other nations will slowly attempt to join in on the union (which is kind of happening now with CARICOM).

However, for all the Caribbean, you'd need a few extra PODs. Number 1 would be in 1961 where Juan Bosch avoids his coup and exile. Not only does this spare the Dominican republic several decades of political turmoil that made CARICOM hasty about allowing it to join and co-ordinate economic planning, you also allow DR to better integrate amongst the Caribbean community. This doesn't have the knock off effect of making any Caribbean nation a bit lefter on the spectrum than one would expect. DR is rather troublesome due to the population (IOTL Jamaica and Trinidad were neutered in the West Indies Federation due to their massive population advantages, here thats been neutralized as DR has 3 times the population) advantage, so the earlier you get them to join the better. However, if the WIF is allowed to become Greater Jamaica than the population advantaged is effectively ended and integration might be easier, as the English speaking Caribbean would feel they can match DR.

Second extra POD would be to kill off Papa Doc and have him replaced with someone far better, someone that grows the Haitian economy and masterfully increases the standard of living. A Haitian Lee Kuan Yew, if you will. This will make integration far easier as Haiti would be perceived as less of an economic drain. You'd also need to ease tensions with the Dominican Republic, but that's something I can't help you with.

Number 4 is Puerto Rico voting for independence at one point and drifting into the Caribbean sphere where it is eventually integrated.

The elephant in the room is Cuba. Now Cuba either way isn't treated that badly even with the Castros in charge by the Caribbean community, but integration would be so much smoother if the Castros had died or were removed from power. I don't see Cuba being too much of a hassle if DR has been let in.

Either way, I feel like Cuba would be treated in the mini EU a bit like Russia in the regular EU, even though Germany would be a far more apt comparison.

You can probably do this all with a POD in 61. Sounds like a fun TLIAD. :)
 
I'm just putting this out there, but what about an ATL where the Haitian Revolution is more successful, with the split between L'Ouverture and Rigaud and the subsequent War Of Knives never taking place? ITTL, without the internal divisions ripping the fledgling nation apart, might it be feasible for the Haitians to repel Leclerc's expeditionary force, gaining international recognition and securing its independence in the same manner as the USA (with Haiti encompassing the Dominican Republic as well at this stage)? ITTL, could the Caribbean people potential unify themselves, rather being unified for administrative purposes by a more dominant colonial power. Their success would encourage more slave revolts across the Caribbean, with any other slave populations who do carry out successful rebellions being offered a place in L'Ouverture's new Caribbean Federation. It may be far-fetched, but I do still feel that it's marginally feasible, and it would certainly be an interesting TL.
International recognition is one thing, securing British and French colonies is a whole different issue, one which I don't see how is possible.


I think there are too many obstacles for the entirety of the Caribbean to be united from within. You'd need them to be politically united before independence for this to work.
 
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Deleted member 67076

The black republic thing can't be hand-waved away. Seeing Haiti succeed was the last thing slaveholding countries wanted. Haiti was completely isolated diplomatically for decades.
That's not entirely true; Gran Colombia recognized Haitian independence and actively traded with Haiti for the duration of its existence. Despite Simon Bolivar's initial hesitance, this proved to be a general boon for both countries.

Should you keep Gran Colombia alive, Haiti would have a valuable ally and partner, and one that could apply pressure to Central and South America to recognize and aid the Black Republic.
 
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