AHC: UK of England and (Northern) France

[The Professor]

AH Challenge
Have a united Kingdom of England and France that excludes Aquitaine and Toulouse (ie a Northern France with no Mediterranean coast).

Bonus points if they claim a Crusader title

Extra Special Professor Points if a realistic history of arms is presented.

 

[Matteo]

Why excluding Aquitaine and Toulouse ? This still leaves a gate on the Mediterranean which is south ?

Anyway, very easy.

Philip IV of France lives 16 more years. In 1328, his 3 sons are dead leaving no sons.

He is very fond of his daughter Isabelle.

He chooses his only grandson as his heir, has him married with his granddaughter Joan of Navarre, and has Edward elected as co-king the way Capetians did at the time then felt a need to secure succession by having the heir elected king while the ruling king was still alive.

No hundred years war.

 

[The Professor]

Why excluding Aquitaine and Toulouse ? This still leaves a gate on the Mediterranean which is south ?

Anyway, very easy.

Philip IV of France lives 16 more years. In 1328, his 3 sons are dead leaving no sons.

He is very fond of his daughter Isabelle.

He chooses his only grandson as his heir, has him married with his granddaughter Joan of Navarre, and has Edward elected as co-king the way Capetians did at the time then felt a need to secure succession by having the heir elected king while the ruling king was still alive.

No hundred years war.

I'm excluding all of the Meridional lands so no Med Coast - have updated the AHC to confirm this.

 

[Matteo]

I don't buy it without the Mediterranean coast.

You could have the hundred years crusade. It would be great.

 

[GdwnsnHo]

Losing Aquitaine seems weird considering that it was one of the greatest victories for the English in the 100 years war. But, I can think of a (semi)-plausible way to achieve this.

1) Get rid of Joan of Arc - without her inspiration, France would likely continue to lose battles.

2) Create a peace treaty that recognizes Charles VI as King of Aquitaine and Toulouse - granting Bordeaux, in exchange for the lands north and east of the Loire and North of the Massif Centrale. France may be English, or instead, the Kingdom of Normandy is recognized instead - the partition a decent compromise.

Charles will likely be busy ensuring that his new crown is recognized - and with Burgundy technically a vassal of France, Burgundys conflict is now with England. - Unless England takes the Crown of Normandy, making Burgundy independent by default.

Fundamentally, we need France to stay demoralized, England to see the sense that half of France is easier to control, and Burgundy to be resolved.

Now the interesting development would be the further divergence of Oct and Oil languages in France - and an early 'Norman' Parliament to calm the 'Norman' lords.

 

[The Professor]

Losing Aquitaine seems weird considering that it was one of the greatest victories for the English in the 100 years war. But, I can think of a (semi)-plausible way to achieve this.

1) Get rid of Joan of Arc - without her inspiration, France would likely continue to lose battles.

2) Create a peace treaty that recognizes Charles VI as King of Aquitaine and Toulouse - granting Bordeaux, in exchange for the lands north and east of the Loire and North of the Massif Centrale. France may be English, or instead, the Kingdom of Normandy is recognized instead - the partition a decent compromise.

Charles will likely be busy ensuring that his new crown is recognized - and with Burgundy technically a vassal of France, Burgundys conflict is now with England. - Unless England takes the Crown of Normandy, making Burgundy independent by default.

Fundamentally, we need France to stay demoralized, England to see the sense that half of France is easier to control, and Burgundy to be resolved.

Now the interesting development would be the further divergence of Oct and Oil languages in France - and an early 'Norman' Parliament to calm the 'Norman' lords.

I guess that is one way. How about if Aquitaine was never obtained by English Kings in the first place?...

 

[The Professor]

Any other ideas before I launch one of my own?

 

[Youngmarshall]

I guess that is one way. How about if Aquitaine was never obtained by English Kings in the first place?...

Different conclusion to the anarchy maybe? Eustace or William becomes king so Henry ii never forms the angevin empire and normandy and flanders remains with the english crown but aquitaine does not. Brittany falls into english orbit after the death of Bertha as it did otl and you get a northern france under english control and southern france very much not.

Then you just need england to hold onto what they have.

 

[The Professor]

Different conclusion to the anarchy maybe? Eustace or William becomes king so Henry ii never forms the angevin empire and normandy and flanders remains with the english crown but aquitaine does not. Brittany falls into english orbit after the death of Bertha as it did otl and you get a northern france under english control and southern france very much not.

Then you just need england to hold onto what they have.

Near to what I thought:
William Adelin survives the White Ship and his marriage with Sybilla of Anjou preserves the peace with Anjou; he later turns out to be sterile/impotent.
With William as Duke of Normandy, William Clito son of Duke Robert gets less support from the Norman Barons and so no 2nd Rebellion.
When Charles the Good of Flanders is murdered and King Louis promotes William Clito, Thierry of Alsace gets to form a better alliance with Henry I Beauclerc by marrying Mathilda, since she's not needed for Anjou, and rather than being last man standing for Flanders gets to beat Clito decisively.
As Mathilda sprogs it's clear there's a problem with William or Sybilla before becoming clear it is William. However William denotes his succession through Mathilda's line.
Stephen of Blois is still an important figure in English Royal circles and he gets to marry his son Eustace to a daughter of Mathilda.
When Mathilda's son dies, Eustace gets picked as replacement and while there is a short couple of battles he comes out King of England, Duke of Normandy, Count of Flanders.
Louis VII of France still needs to ally with the other, elder, Blois lines and so still marries off his daughters to Champagne and Blois.
Meanwhile Eleanor of Aquitaine finds herself a nonAnjou to be her Duke.
TTL Philippe dies leading to his nephew Henry of Champagne being crowned King (there's no need for pseudoSalic Law here).
Eustace's line dies out, leaving the Champagnes as senior heirs to England-Normandy-Flanders.
During the wars to secure the north, Aquitaine and Toulouse end up in Aragonese orbit and later is removed from French suzerainty.

 

[The Professor]

Bumping for other thoughts

 

[kasumigenx]

Near to what I thought:
William Adelin survives the White Ship and his marriage with Sybilla of Anjou preserves the peace with Anjou; he later turns out to be sterile/impotent.
With William as Duke of Normandy, William Clito son of Duke Robert gets less support from the Norman Barons and so no 2nd Rebellion.
When Charles the Good of Flanders is murdered and King Louis promotes William Clito, Thierry of Alsace gets to form a better alliance with Henry I Beauclerc by marrying Mathilda, since she's not needed for Anjou, and rather than being last man standing for Flanders gets to beat Clito decisively.
As Mathilda sprogs it's clear there's a problem with William or Sybilla before becoming clear it is William. However William denotes his succession through Mathilda's line.
Stephen of Blois is still an important figure in English Royal circles and he gets to marry his son Eustace to a daughter of Mathilda.
When Mathilda's son dies, Eustace gets picked as replacement and while there is a short couple of battles he comes out King of England, Duke of Normandy, Count of Flanders.
Louis VII of France still needs to ally with the other, elder, Blois lines and so still marries off his daughters to Champagne and Blois.
Meanwhile Eleanor of Aquitaine finds herself a nonAnjou to be her Duke.
TTL Philippe dies leading to his nephew Henry of Champagne being crowned King (there's no need for pseudoSalic Law here).
Eustace's line dies out, leaving the Champagnes as senior heirs to England-Normandy-Flanders.
During the wars to secure the north, Aquitaine and Toulouse end up in Aragonese orbit and later is removed from French suzerainty.

Or rather the marriage between Louis and Eleanor is fruitful, after all Eleanor of Aquitaine was the senior heiress of the Counts of Provence and of Matilda of Canossa based on a certain mode of inheritance, so I think Louis can use that to his advantage..