AHC: Two or three European Dark Ages

How could Europe fall into a Dark Age again after recovering from the first one? And perhaps decline yet again some time after that?

Perhaps have the Caliphate conquer most of Europe, but collapse in a chaos fueled by war and plague?

Yeah yeah Dark Ages isn't the correct term since the windmill was invented and since the Muslims were in a golden age.
 
A mongol invasion that may fail to actually conquer Europe could still wreck most of it. Followed by a century or two of raids from the east and the Plague. That'd make for one.

Another one would probably depend on the butterflies of the first one.
 
An inquisition of all Europe started before Luther became popular, inquisition kills sculptors of unclothed people, most intellectuals, Adam Weishaupt (illuminati), have the printing press become sinful quickly so that the catholics hold their grip on Europe, Matteo Palmieri is killed for his writings, Nicholas Cusanus makes a recantation, Christopher Columbus doesn't discover America, kill John Calvin, Copernicus is killed at the stake... Overall a catholic inquisition caused by offence to faith from protistents, jews, pagans, freethinkers, anyone who pictured the naked human form, and scientists.
 
I think that for this to happen you only need the Black Death to be a bit worse than it was. There were allready signs that society in the effected areas was breaking down. People were losing faith in the Church and the estaplishment, turning on thier nieghbours. Trade was collapsing as travellers were turned away from towns and the traders were dieing of the plaque. If the plaque had not passed but returned every year or two on the same scale how long before society in Europe collapsed entirly?
 
Speaking from the Scottish experience, the people who were actually trying to reform the Catholic church - who struggled, unsuccessfully in our case, against a mass of corrupt hierarchs and ignorant clergy - had many of the same ideas as the Protestants. Indeed after the Reformation they largely accommodated.

I don't know where we get the idea that the Catholic church wanted to Destroy Civilisation.

Mind you, the mid 17th century was entirely awful as things were and I'm pretty sure it involved a net decline in population. People widely believed the world was ending. That's pretty bad.
 
An inquisition of all Europe started before Luther became popular, inquisition kills sculptors of unclothed people, most intellectuals, Adam Weishaupt (illuminati), have the printing press become sinful quickly so that the catholics hold their grip on Europe, Matteo Palmieri is killed for his writings, Nicholas Cusanus makes a recantation, Christopher Columbus doesn't discover America, kill John Calvin, Copernicus is killed at the stake... Overall a catholic inquisition caused by offence to faith from protistents, jews, pagans, freethinkers, anyone who pictured the naked human form, and scientists.

Is there any chance that the Catholic Church would ever have done that, or is it just anti-Catholic sentiment...
 
A mongol invasion that may fail to actually conquer Europe could still wreck most of it. Followed by a century or two of raids from the east and the Plague. That'd make for one.

Another one would probably depend on the butterflies of the first one.
Ah. There could be even more than three Dark Ages.

Dark Age 1: Fall of the Roman Empire

mini Dark Age: Plague in Eastern Roman Empire and Mediterranean (allows Muslims to conquer Europe)

Dark Age 2: Fall of the Arab Empire

Dark Age 3: Extremely successful Mongol Invasion

Dark Age 4: Another plague
 
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Ah. There could be even more than three Dark Ages.

Dark Age 1: Fall of the Roman Empire

mini Dark Age: Plague in Eastern Roman Empire and Mediterranean (allows Muslims to conquer Europe)

Dark Age 2: Fall of the Arab Empire

Dark Age 3: Extremely successful Mongol Invasion

Dark Age 4: Another plague
Was there a dark age in conjunction with Black Death?
 

amphibulous

Banned
How could Europe fall into a Dark Age again after recovering from the first one? And perhaps decline yet again some time after that?

What "Dark Age"???

Yes, the Roman Empire had collapsed - but food production per head increased, people learned how farm heavy soils, use horse power effective, developed better sea faring techniques and metallurgy, the use of wind and water power on a larger scale than ever before....

The Dark Ages are pretty much an obsolete concept. They're a legacy of a period when upper class education was dominated by the study of Latin and Greek culture, and it was therefore natural to see the collapse of a civilization based on sustained genocide (the classical version of the Roman Empire was propped only by a constant supply of new slaves to replace the ones they used up) - and too stupid to work out how to harness a horse with out choking it - as a bad thing.
 
Was there a dark age in conjunction with Black Death?
I don't think so. It caused upheavals, but they didn't cause a decline, just change. For example it increased social mobility. Which is actually a good thing.

The most abandon-all-reason dark-age-y thing was the superstitious blaming of Jews for the Black Death.
 
I don't think so. It caused upheavals, but they didn't cause a decline, just change. For example it increased social mobility. Which is actually a good thing.

The most abandon-all-reason dark-age-y thing was the superstitious blaming of Jews for the Black Death.
I'm not sure why the plagues in your scenario would cause dark ages, then.

Heck, I'm not sure why the "collapse of the Arab Empire" (I think you might have to elaborate on that) would cause a dark age, either. Seems more like Muslim technology would make Europe better off.
 
Is there any chance that the Catholic Church would ever have done that, or is it just anti-Catholic sentiment...

Zero chance. The inquisition was concerned with one thing, and one thing only - heresy. As long as people weren't getting the theology wrong, they did nothing. Even when they did find someone who fit their purview, putting people to death was generally something they avoided. Most people brought before the inquisition were exonerated and released. Those they did find of heretical tendences were usually people they educated on Church doctrine and released after they recanted. There were relatively few people who really challenged Church teaching and didn't recant.

Luther, of course, would have been one of them. The inquisition would have loved to get their hands on him. Of course, very few of the Protestant reformers were any better. John Calvin's Geneva was probably more tyrannical than anything previously found under the Catholic Church.

But Columbus, Copernicus, the Florentine humanists? Absolutely no chance. It was the Catholic clergy who were the biggest supporters of the Renaissance, arts, and humanism. The Medieval and Renaissance era Catholic Church was not anti-intellectural.
 
I'm not sure why the plagues in your scenario would cause dark ages, then.

Heck, I'm not sure why the "collapse of the Arab Empire" (I think you might have to elaborate on that) would cause a dark age, either. Seems more like Muslim technology would make Europe better off.

Well, because they're in the Eastern Roman Empire. It's just a small decline. I did say 'mini Dark Age'.
But it's enough to help the Arabs a bit in their conquest of the Eastern Roman Empire.

Muslim technology would indeed improve Europe--but, if the Caliphate had conquered most of Europe and then collapsed, with the resultant states being at war with each other, and the Muslims and Christians in each state being at war with each other, then there might be a Dark Age as a result.
 
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