AHC; Turning Czechs into German speaking Austrians

I'm wondering at what point, if ever, the Czechs of the Austro-Hungarian empire could have been Germanized. Were there attempts to do so through language laws? If they had been tried, what likelihood of success would there have been. It seems in OTL that there was plenty of intermarriage going on, based on the German last names that constantly pop up in Czech life today, even after the ethnic cleansing of 1945-46, or for that matter, the Czech last names in Austria today.
Had the Moravians been Germanized first, with them merging with the northeastern and southeastern Sudetens, then the Bohemian Czechs would have been surrounded by German speakers, making their independent language/ethnicity status even tougher.
Such a merged Austro-Czech German speaking people would then have amounted to a clear majority in the Austrian section of the Empire, with intriguing long range possibilities.
 
If you get the Mongols to devastate Bohemia like they did with Silesia, it's possible that they need settlers from more desnly populated areas (for example the German Lands).
 
Many rural Czechs went to Vienna to work in the factories and especially the brickworks there, the so-called 'Ziegelböhmen', also until the mid-1800s, the cities were predominantly German(ized), and not only in the Sudeten. It was the influx of rural Czech-speaking populations into the cities that tipped the balance. Most of the Empire's industry was concentrated around Vienna and in Bohemia.
If the Habsburgs manage to crush those cretin Hungarian magnates, and encourage a better spreading of industies to inner Austria, Hungary and Croatia, too, the slowing of country flight in Bohemia may allow the cities to assimilate the newcomers instead of the other way around. Czech may remain being seen as a language of country bumpkins, as in the early 19th century. It may also help if some of the emerging Panslawists in Bohemis visit Russia, to see their Slaw brothers first hand. The Czechs culturally, if not linguistically, were part of the same cultural area as the Germans, northern Italians, and eastern French, and had little similarity to, say, the Russians or the Serbs, despite romantic notions of Slav brotherhood.
 
Many rural Czechs went to Vienna to work in the factories and especially the brickworks there, the so-called 'Ziegelböhmen', also until the mid-1800s, the cities were predominantly German(ized), and not only in the Sudeten. It was the influx of rural Czech-speaking populations into the cities that tipped the balance. Most of the Empire's industry was concentrated around Vienna and in Bohemia.
If the Habsburgs manage to crush those cretin Hungarian magnates, and encourage a better spreading of industies to inner Austria, Hungary and Croatia, too, the slowing of country flight in Bohemia may allow the cities to assimilate the newcomers instead of the other way around. Czech may remain being seen as a language of country bumpkins, as in the early 19th century. It may also help if some of the emerging Panslawists in Bohemis visit Russia, to see their Slaw brothers first hand. The Czechs culturally, if not linguistically, were part of the same cultural area as the Germans, northern Italians, and eastern French, and had little similarity to, say, the Russians or the Serbs, despite romantic notions of Slav brotherhood.

I don't know that would work for the entirety or Bohemia and Moravia. How 'Germanized' were the Bohemian (major?) towns, since only having a German-speaking (or in practice bilingual) elite isn't enough; in nineteenth century Flanders, the Dutch speaking part of Belgium, the elite was Francophone (actually bilingual in French and Dutch), however since the rest of the towns stayed speaking Dutch (and local dialect) the stayed that and aren't Francophone nowadays. OTOH basically all descendants of Flemish peasants, who moved to Walloon towns to work in the Walloon industry (in the nineteenth century Wallonia was the industrialized region and many parts of Flanders were still rural) are now Francophone.

Still a better spread out industry could work, Bohemians and Hungarians moving to Vienna would become Viennese over time. Also in certain southern parts (parts of Carinthia and Styria, some parts didn't end up in Austria and like Carniola, which used to have a German speaking minority, are nowadays a part of Slovenia) there used to speak Slovene or a related language, or the Eastern Burgenland, which used to be a part of the kingdom of Hungary.
 

ingemann

Banned
To transform Bohemia into a German speaking land in the 19th century, would demand a POD around the 30 Year War, but to make Bohemia majority German speaking and identifying would be quite possible with a rather late POD.

The easiest way is to make the Czech National Awakening something of a joke. The easiest way to do that is fracture the movement, with different claims and fraction.

So let imagine that as in OT the national awakening start slowly through the 1820ties. But here the movement split, a Moravian National Awakening are started and that and the Czech Awakening start silly fight over which one is the real and universal one, at the same time the Czech movement one split between pro- and anti-catholics. It end up something of a embarassment for the students and they begin to embrace the Bohemian German movement (most of them was German speakers anyway), which is more pan-Bohemian. The different Slavic movement don't die, but the infighting keep it from becoming more than a fringe movement in the start.

When 1848 come along and the Bohemians become part of the pan-German revolution, it fail as in OTL, but it create a strong German identity in the Bohemian students. The Czech and Moravian movement are reduced to the fringe, tolerated but mostly ignored, and while the rural population keep talking Czech at home, German become slowly their public language so by 1866, the Czech and Moravian movement have stabilised and stopped infighting, but most people of Bohemia have little interest in the movement even if they speak Czech. Czech are over the next decades slowly reduced to a language for ruralites and rural migrants to the urban areas, while German are the language of trade, culture and education. The Czech speaker are not discriminated against at least not more than against German speaker of the same class as the Czech speakers. But it's clearly a language in retreat, by 1900 only 25% of the population speak the the language.
 
I'm wondering at what point, if ever, the Czechs of the Austro-Hungarian empire could have been Germanized.

Frederick the Great is killed in the Seven Years War. Austria recovers Silesia. When the Bavarian line of the Wittelsbachs dies out in 1779, Archduke and Emperor Joseph II executes the deal he tried OTL: ceding the Austrian Netherlands to the Zweibrucken Wittelsbach heir in return for Bavaria. (OTL it was blocked by Frederick, and Joseph's mother Maria Theresa was opposed to any fighting for Bavaria.)

The French Revolution, the rise of Napoleon, and the mediatization of the HRE follow mostly as OTL; but with Austria already holding Bavaria, the scattered Hapsburg lands on the upper Danube ("Hither Austria") are not written off as OTL, but retained and the surrounding petty states are absorbed into Austria.

France defeats Russia and Austria, and revives the Kingdom of Poland, including Galicia. When the wars finally settle out, Poland survives as an independent state under Napoleon's brother-in-law Murat. Napoleon himself reigns in France. The Bourbons rule Spain and Naples. Saxony expanded as an ally of Napoleon, then switched sides and got to keep its gains. (Napoleon was beaten out of Germany in 1814, but had previously beaten Russia so badly she stayed out of the later war.) Napoleon awarded the Kingdom of Italy to his younger son. The Hohenzollerns had an accident; Saxony grabbed Brandenburg, while Franconia went to Austria.

(Just to fill in the rest of the settlement: the Wittelsbach state includes Belgium, Luxembourg, the Palatinate, the west bank of the Rhine, Berg, Mark, amd Mayence. The Kingdom of Hanover, under George III's second son (Prinny died shortly after fathering Charlotte; George III died in 1804), includes Oldenburg, Hanover, Brunswick, Westphalia, and Holstein. Saxony includes all Wettin lands, Brandenburg, Pomerania, and Mecklenburg. Hesse-Kassel, Hesse-Darmstadt, Nassau, Baden, and Wurttemberg survive as "petty states".)

Austria has a crisis in the 1840s, which leads to Hungary breaking away.

What does all this mean for the Czechs? That the Austrian state surrounds the Czech lands on three sides, and is overwhelmingly German. The only non-Germans are the Czechs and Slovenes. In the late 1800s, rural Czech-speakers migrate to the new industrial cities of Austria. Not just those in Bohemia, Moravia, and Austria but also into Silesia, Bavaria, Swabia, and Franconia. Thus dispersed, they quickly forget their homeland speech and adopt German. Others emigrate overseas. By 1900, Czech speakers are a minority even in Bohemia. In spite of an attempted "Czech revival" in 1880-1920, use of the language steadily declines. Intermarriage also has its effect.

By 1950, only about 10% of the people speak Czech as a primary language, and only about 25% speak it at all. By 2000, 2% and 10%.
 
Yet another "screw the non-German nations of central Europe" idea. :rolleyes: Really, guys ? No offence, but this is already becoming somewhat of a cliché...

However, I agree with some of the assumptions raised in this thread. You could slyly assimilate some segments of the Czech population. But given the history of the Czech lands and especially Bohemia, I am slightly doubtful that a certain amount of ethnic nationalism wouldn't bite back as a backlash at assimilationist policies. Particularly if the POD is as late as the 14th and 15th century, when some degree of Czech nationalism is already in place.

BTW, what about the Moravians ? :confused: Will they also get germanized in this scenario ?
 

ingemann

Banned
Yet another "screw the non-German nations of central Europe" idea. :rolleyes: Really, guys ? No offence, but this is already becoming somewhat of a cliché...

However, I agree with some of the assumptions raised in this thread. You could slyly assimilate some segments of the Czech population. But given the history of the Czech lands and especially Bohemia, I am slightly doubtful that a certain amount of ethnic nationalism wouldn't bite back as a backlash at assimilationist policies. Particularly if the POD is as late as the 14th and 15th century, when some degree of Czech nationalism is already in place.

BTW, what about the Moravians ? :confused: Will they also get germanized in this scenario ?

I imagined that Moravians would be better to extent their identity to the Slovaks, at the same time Moravia was less German than Bohemia proper (25-30% against 40%) from the start. So I think the Moravians will do better both in Moravia (around half the population) and in Upper Hungary.
 
I would go for the Hussite wars. That was one starting point of a "Czech" ethnic identity, it being crushed mercilessly as the peasants revolts would leave thousands of "Czech" dead, particularly the leaders of the Hussites and thus the local "Czech" elites, whereas in the subsequent suppressive regime the non-Hussites, thus predominantly "Germans", and new "German" immigrants would be favoured.
 
I imagined that Moravians would be better to extent their identity to the Slovaks, at the same time Moravia was less German than Bohemia proper (25-30% against 40%) from the start. So I think the Moravians will do better both in Moravia (around half the population) and in Upper Hungary.

What Moravians in Upper Hungary ?! :confused: Honestly, there is no such thing. There was never even a large or distinct minority of people who identified as "Moravian" or "people of the margraviate of Moravia" anywhere in Upper Hungary. At the very most, you had trade links with what would now be NW Slovakia and with the traditional Moravian-Austrian-Hungarian borderlands around the Morava and Niederösterreich.


As for the possibility of weakening the Czech national awakening, mentioned a few posts above, I doubt that "it would have no consequences on the surrounding national movements". It would have. At the very least, the Slovak equivalent would go down different roads, affecting the political and cultural developments in Hungary. In OTL, it was quite reliant on the Czech NA for some time and took some inspiration and encouragement from it, even though it did most of the hard work itself, without direct Czech help. Make the Czech NA an ineffective joke and the butterfky effect will trigger some definite changes in the course of some affiliated/allied NAs of the time. The ATL Slovak NA would not necessarily be weaker or worse off (or the opposite of the two) without the presence of the Czech one. It would just be different, but that's enough to create butterflies. Also, with the crippling of Czech culture and language, world culture (particularly future works of literature and maybe of film) will certainly lose some of their OTL gains from the hands and minds of Czech creators (I'm not referring inasmuch to Kafka, he's safer, but to the likes of Nezval, Neruda, Smetana, Dvořák, etc.).

Well, any way we put it, this scenario is quite a Czech-screw, Austrian/German-wank. Nothing bad about it, since it is an allohistorical possibility. I just take issue with the fact that a reverse scenario (made within reasonable, realistic bounds) never seems to appear on these forums, not even as a suggestion. It's annoying to see the same states get wanked over and over again, and even more annoying to see the notion that wanking a certain state will somehow always be beneficial to it in the long run. If you look at OTL history and look at any nation-wanks and nation-screws realistically, you often see the WI versions to be blown out of proportion or built on ignoring the wider context of a specific era.
 
Yet another "screw the non-German nations of central Europe" idea. :rolleyes: Really, guys ? No offence, but this is already becoming somewhat of a cliché...

However, I agree with some of the assumptions raised in this thread. You could slyly assimilate some segments of the Czech population. But given the history of the Czech lands and especially Bohemia, I am slightly doubtful that a certain amount of ethnic nationalism wouldn't bite back as a backlash at assimilationist policies. Particularly if the POD is as late as the 14th and 15th century, when some degree of Czech nationalism is already in place.

BTW, what about the Moravians ? :confused: Will they also get germanized in this scenario ?

Moravia had even more German settlement than Bohemia. Brno was German-speaking up until the First World War. If Bohemia goes German, Moravia is almost certain to.
 
The other thing I wanted to say is that Austrian Silesia would probably be enough to do this. The area is better suited to industrialization, and many Czechs will go there in search of a job. That likely means no one set of cities gets a Czech majority.

I also disagree they'll consider themselves German Austrians. They'll probably think of themselves as German Bohemians or German Moravians.
 

ingemann

Banned
What Moravians in Upper Hungary ?! :confused: Honestly, there is no such thing. There was never even a large or distinct minority of people who identified as "Moravian" or "people of the margraviate of Moravia" anywhere in Upper Hungary. At the very most, you had trade links with what would now be NW Slovakia and with the traditional Moravian-Austrian-Hungarian borderlands around the Morava and Niederösterreich.

By Upper Hungary I'm talking about modern day Slovakia

Also Moravian may be a regional identity today and in the 18th century, but if it a national awakening, the Moravians would talk about their past as Great Moravia. National awakenings are thing which reach outside a regions border and often try to include closely related people (whether they agree with it or not). Seing as Czech and Slovak historical was a dialect continium, it's not unlikely when producing a language based on the eastern Czech dialects, that a lot of Slovaks would feel included.

Well, any way we put it, this scenario is quite a Czech-screw, Austrian/German-wank. Nothing bad about it, since it is an allohistorical possibility. I just take issue with the fact that a reverse scenario (made within reasonable, realistic bounds) never seems to appear on these forums, not even as a suggestion. It's annoying to see the same states get wanked over and over again, and even more annoying to see the notion that wanking a certain state will somehow always be beneficial to it in the long run. If you look at OTL history and look at any nation-wanks and nation-screws realistically, you often see the WI versions to be blown out of proportion or built on ignoring the wider context of a specific era.

I think it's because German speaking Bohemia/Moravia simply change the world a lot. Suddenly Austria have a strong core and that could radical change the late 19th and early 20th century.
 
Well, any way we put it, this scenario is quite a Czech-screw, Austrian/German-wank. Nothing bad about it, since it is an allohistorical possibility. I just take issue with the fact that a reverse scenario (made within reasonable, realistic bounds) never seems to appear on these forums, not even as a suggestion. It's annoying to see the same states get wanked over and over again, and even more annoying to see the notion that wanking a certain state will somehow always be beneficial to it in the long run. If you look at OTL history and look at any nation-wanks and nation-screws realistically, you often see the WI versions to be blown out of proportion or built on ignoring the wider context of a specific era.

Surely our timeline was the Czech-wank, German-screw? All the areas of Eastern Europe that were vaguely Czech became the Czech Republic, including the German cities and the German sudetenland. Meanwhile Germany lost a third of its territory. Looking at this historical ethnic map, I don't think this is too much of a wank for the Germans:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Ethnic_map_(1914).jpg
 
Surely our timeline was the Czech-wank, German-screw? All the areas of Eastern Europe that were vaguely Czech became the Czech Republic, including the German cities and the German sudetenland. Meanwhile Germany lost a third of its territory. Looking at this historical ethnic map, I don't think this is too much of a wank for the Germans:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Ethnic_map_(1914).jpg

I'm somewhat hesitant to call any country which went through fifty years of communist rule, during which one of the most historically significant moments involved foreign troops invading the country and deposing a reformist leader, the subject of a wank. Leaving aside that the seven years before those fifty years involved the Czechs being at the tender mercies of the Nazis, and the several hundred years before that, barring a twenty year period, involved the Czechs being ruled by a foreign king.
 
I'm somewhat hesitant to call any country which went through fifty years of communist rule, during which one of the most historically significant moments involved foreign troops invading the country and deposing a reformist leader, the subject of a wank. Leaving aside that the seven years before those fifty years involved the Czechs being at the tender mercies of the Nazis, and the several hundred years before that, barring a twenty year period, involved the Czechs being ruled by a foreign king.

With any POD in the last 400 years, I think the Czechs are in a better position now than the vast majority of likely timelines. They were a small nation, surrounded by large and more powerful nations and heavily colonized by foreigners. It would have taken a very unlikely fluke to get through that without periods of foreign exploitation. That they now have all the Czech lands to themselves, have their integrity guaranteed by the major Western nations, have free trade with most of Europe and get given large amounts of aid by Britain, Germany etc is pretty much the best plausible result they could have got. The same is true for most of the small nations of Eastern Europe.
 
Surely our timeline was the Czech-wank, German-screw? All the areas of Eastern Europe that were vaguely Czech became the Czech Republic, including the German cities and the German sudetenland. Meanwhile Germany lost a third of its territory. Looking at this historical ethnic map, I don't think this is too much of a wank for the Germans:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Ethnic_map_(1914).jpg

So you think that mere existence of independent Czech nation is a Czech-wank and German screw??? Do you think that this timeline is French/Italian/Polish/Russian wank because these nations exists and have their own lands? And why do you think that because of we Czechs exist as independent nation, Germans are screwed? Do you think that we commit some kind of offence against Germans because of our national revival.

Yet one think: Czech republic is Central, NOT Eastern Europe. Forty years of soviet oppression could not erase previous thousand years of history.
 
So you think that mere existence of independent Czech nation is a Czech-wank and German screw??? Do you think that this timeline is French/Italian/Polish/Russian wank because these nations exists and have their own lands? And why do you think that because of we Czechs exist as independent nation, Germans are screwed? Do you think that we commit some kind of offence against Germans because of our national revival.

Yet one think: Czech republic is Central, NOT Eastern Europe. Forty years of soviet oppression could not erase previous thousand years of history.

That isn't what he said or implied at all...
 
With any POD in the last 400 years, I think the Czechs are in a better position now than the vast majority of likely timelines. They were a small nation, surrounded by large and more powerful nations and heavily colonized by foreigners. It would have taken a very unlikely fluke to get through that without periods of foreign exploitation. That they now have all the Czech lands to themselves, have their integrity guaranteed by the major Western nations, have free trade with most of Europe and get given large amounts of aid by Britain, Germany etc is pretty much the best plausible result they could have got.

The same is true for most of the small nations of Eastern Europe.

Yes thats true. The "Czechs" had luck that there wasnt a "Greater Germany" during the 19th century, and that the Austrians lost decisive wars against Prussia several times.

What is important IMO: The Czechs were Cathlolics just like the Austrians/Germans at their "ethnical border". This made Intermarriage possible and much more probable than lets say between German protestants and Polish catholics in Prussia

I guess the last "realistic" option for "germanification" of Bohemia was in 1866 - after the Austrian defeat vs. Prussia and the exclusion of Austria of "minor Germany", the assimilation of (most of the) Chechs became impossible.

The same is true for most of the small nations of Eastern Europe.

Small nations in Eastern Europe had luck that Tsarist Russia collapsed in 1917 - otherwise there probably wouldnt exist independent states/nations like Latvia, Estonia etc.

Russification policies would have probably lead to (almost full) assimilation.
 
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