AHC: Turkey joins the Axis

Turkey has no interest at all to join the Axis Powers. What the hell are they going to get by being on the receiving end of Soviet armies on their eastern border marching and occupying their country?

I guess you *could* have something involving the Treaty of Sevres leaving Turkey much more smaller than it is in OTL.
 
Turkey has no interest at all to join the Axis Powers. What the hell are they going to get by being on the receiving end of Soviet armies on their eastern border marching and occupying their country?

I guess you *could* have something involving the Treaty of Sevres leaving Turkey much more smaller than it is in OTL.

Lots of nations in this time period made extremely stupid decisions, so all we need is a POD to get Turkey to make a similar one. Or conversely, a POD where joining that Axis looks like the smart thing for Turkey to do.
 

wormyguy

Banned
I suppose if Ataturk doesn't recover the 1878 territories in the Caucasus, but that'd likely butterfly the Nazis and WWII. Maybe if the UK somehow starts seriously oppressing the Cypriot Turks?
 
This one is pretty damn hard. Turkey wisely choose to not get involved because either way they were screwed. They knew that joining the allies would get them overun by the axis with little Allied help and vice visera with the Axis. With anything close to OTL's WWII I think this is pretty hard to do.

The fact is, for the Turkish front to be a success the Germans would need to send troops, planes, and supplies to Turkey they just didn't have available. Maybe if somehow Turkey joins the Axis in lieu of Italy as the junior Mediterranean partner. That could actually be interesting. Maybe Ataturk dies earlier and some Turkish fascists take over, while in Italy Italo Balbo takes over?
 
I don't know about any POD's but say around September 1941 would be the best time for them to join, Britain looks out of it, the USSR looks like it is on the ropes and the USA is neutral. Some cynical calculations may come up with "the allies have lost lets jump on the bandwagon and gain some war booty" as the current future scenario.

THat said I cannot think of a POD that would actually get them to declare war, only what they would be thinking when they did
 
I am thinking that post war, you would have a Soviet occupation and a People's Republic of Turkey. Maybe some of the British troops invading Greece attack Western Turkey, then you would have a divided Turkey, with the capitalists controlling the straits.
 
What about something like what happened to Finland? Rather than the winter war, Stalin decides he wants to bully Turkey into accepting...something. Perhaps regard the Dardanelles Straits? A territorial dispute Stalin wants settled favorably? Anyway, an alt-Winter War occurs with Turkey (the Summer War?) and Turkey gives into Soviet demands, but then ally with Germany for Barbarossa. The main difference with Finland is that Turkey may also need to fight against the Western allies in this scenario.
 
This would help the Germans greatly. All they need is using an airport in eastern Turkey for a bombing of Baku. That'd be enough for taking out a big part of Russia's oil supply. And then?

(I admit it looks a bit simple, but still. What did the Germans prevent from suggesting Turkey this? Or rather, if they did, why didn't Turkey agree?)
 
What about something like what happened to Finland? Rather than the winter war, Stalin decides he wants to bully Turkey into accepting...something. Perhaps regard the Dardanelles Straits? A territorial dispute Stalin wants settled favorably? Anyway, an alt-Winter War occurs with Turkey (the Summer War?) and Turkey gives into Soviet demands, but then ally with Germany for Barbarossa. The main difference with Finland is that Turkey may also need to fight against the Western allies in this scenario.

I like this. Seems most probable.

WIth Barbarossa or right after.

Better security if the Hitler makes an offer just as the tanks start rolling.
 
I like this. Seems most probable.

WIth Barbarossa or right after.

Better security if the Hitler makes an offer just as the tanks start rolling.

I'm just wondering what Stalin would make as his demands to Turkey. Right of passage for Soviet Naval ships through the straits and denying passage to any ships from nations unfriendly to the USSR, perhaps?
 
A problem is that Turkey is in extreme need of just about every weapon you can list, to the point that they lack rifles for a third of the reserves, while Germany's record as a supplier of arms to the other members of the Axis was already well known to be both poor and unreliable.

Unless the Turkish government is willing to operate on trust, on a matter which Germany was already known to be untrustworthy regarding...
 
Historically Stalin did want some things in the Straits, and raised the issue with the Nazis. After World War II the Soviets made some border demands on the Turks that pushed them into the anti-Soviet camp. All of that does mean that the idea of more or bigger demands by the Soviets prior to Barbarossa is not totally impossible.

The Turks also did have some claims on former Ottoman territories that they might have pushed if they thought they could get away with it. They actually did take over a little area of disputed territory on the Syrian border. They also eyed oil rich parts of Northern Iraq that were majority Kurdish, but with a large Turkish minority. After the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, the Turks floated the possibility of taking over Soviet territories with various Turkish-speaking groups. I'm not sure how serious they were in that.

The Germans were interested in drawing the Turks into the war on their side, and the Turks were willing to give lip service to the possibility. There were a couple of problems though. They were not likely to enter the war while it was not clear who would win. Also, some parts of the German government was trying to draw Arab nationalists into alliance with the Germans, and the closer Germany got to the Turks, the more Arab Nationalists feared that if Germany won the Turks would regain control of at least some Arab lands. That limited what the Germans were willing to offer the Turks.

There is actually a book out on Turkish diplomacy during World War II called "The Elusive Neutral" that goes into the diplomatic maneuverings in depth. It's a little muddy in places, but gives some good insights.
 
Historically Stalin did want some things in the Straits, and raised the issue with the Nazis. After World War II the Soviets made some border demands on the Turks that pushed them into the anti-Soviet camp. All of that does mean that the idea of more or bigger demands by the Soviets prior to Barbarossa is not totally impossible.

The Turks also did have some claims on former Ottoman territories that they might have pushed if they thought they could get away with it. They actually did take over a little area of disputed territory on the Syrian border. They also eyed oil rich parts of Northern Iraq that were majority Kurdish, but with a large Turkish minority. After the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, the Turks floated the possibility of taking over Soviet territories with various Turkish-speaking groups. I'm not sure how serious they were in that.

The Germans were interested in drawing the Turks into the war on their side, and the Turks were willing to give lip service to the possibility. There were a couple of problems though. They were not likely to enter the war while it was not clear who would win. Also, some parts of the German government was trying to draw Arab nationalists into alliance with the Germans, and the closer Germany got to the Turks, the more Arab Nationalists feared that if Germany won the Turks would regain control of at least some Arab lands. That limited what the Germans were willing to offer the Turks.

There is actually a book out on Turkish diplomacy during World War II called "The Elusive Neutral" that goes into the diplomatic maneuverings in depth. It's a little muddy in places, but gives some good insights.

Good information. Lets assume that in our scenario, Soviet bullying over the straits issues and territory disputes pushes Turkey into joining the Axis before they're sure who would win. How will this effect that war in the USSR? The War in North Africa? Many people have said that Turkey wasn't militarily powerful, but it was in a strategically significant location.
 
Historically Stalin did want some things in the Straits, and raised the issue with the Nazis. After World War II the Soviets made some border demands on the Turks that pushed them into the anti-Soviet camp. All of that does mean that the idea of more or bigger demands by the Soviets prior to Barbarossa is not totally impossible.

The Turks also did have some claims on former Ottoman territories that they might have pushed if they thought they could get away with it. They actually did take over a little area of disputed territory on the Syrian border. They also eyed oil rich parts of Northern Iraq that were majority Kurdish, but with a large Turkish minority. After the Germans invaded the Soviet Union, the Turks floated the possibility of taking over Soviet territories with various Turkish-speaking groups. I'm not sure how serious they were in that.

The Germans were interested in drawing the Turks into the war on their side, and the Turks were willing to give lip service to the possibility. There were a couple of problems though. They were not likely to enter the war while it was not clear who would win. Also, some parts of the German government was trying to draw Arab nationalists into alliance with the Germans, and the closer Germany got to the Turks, the more Arab Nationalists feared that if Germany won the Turks would regain control of at least some Arab lands. That limited what the Germans were willing to offer the Turks.

There is actually a book out on Turkish diplomacy during World War II called "The Elusive Neutral" that goes into the diplomatic maneuverings in depth. It's a little muddy in places, but gives some good insights.

Have you any information on what Stalin wanted from Turkey?

Ill equipped or not, any war fought on Turkish soil will give an advantage to the defenders due to terrain.
 
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