AHC: Truly domesticated elephants

[Mort the Reaper]

The Asian elephant is often called "the world's largest domesticated animal", but they're not actually domesticated. To quote World Animal Protection:

Elephants are not and have never been domesticated like cats or dogs.

These animals have gone through the process of ‘domestication’ – a socio-biological process that happens over the course of many generations of human-guided breeding.

Most experts agree that to be domesticated, animals must have been selectively bred by humans for at least 12 generations, with offspring from each generation chosen for further breeding based on their desired traits – like strength, size, appearance and behaviour.

The instincts and even anatomy of domesticated animals are significantly different from their wild counterparts. They likely still display natural behaviours, but due to selective breeding they are much easier to handle than wild animals of the same species.

It’s not possible for one individual wild animal to become domesticated within their lifetime.

Throughout the 3,000-year history of humans using elephants, most elephants have been captured from the wild. A few may be first or second generation captive bred, but they are not bred selectively for the traits desirable by humans.

The fact that humans have been using elephants for a long time does not make them domesticated.

So here's your challenge: have there be truly domesticated elephants in the world.

 

[Dolan]

So here's your challenge: have there be truly domesticated elephants in the world.

Simplest way: NO RISE OF ROME.

The Major Diadochi Kingdoms (Esp Antigonids, Seleucids, Ptolemaics) and Carthage all actively tried efforts to actually transplant sustainable breeding population of Indian Elephants to Europe, Asia Minor, and Egypt, because they love using those beasts in war. Their long-term survival would meant that those elephant ranging grounds and domestication efforts continue, rather than being brought to Rome in chains and killed as entertainment in the Amphitheatres.

Elephants are arguably already partially domesticated in India though, and I would say said quote from World Animal Protection are politically charged. The decline of Elephant domestication in India was started by British Colonization, after all, undoing thousands of years of Indian efforts due to some so-called Romanticized Euro-centric Naturalists prefers Elephants to be free despite they are obviously already partially domesticated.

 

[Ivan Lupo]

Bull elephants, Asian and especially African, are far too dangerous and unpredictable to hold captive for too long.

 

[Sertorius126]

Simplest way: NO RISE OF ROME.

The Major Diadochi Kingdoms (Esp Antigonids, Seleucids, Ptolemaics) and Carthage all actively tried efforts to actually transplant sustainable breeding population of Indian Elephants to Europe, Asia Minor, and Egypt, because they love using those beasts in war. Their long-term survival would meant that those elephant ranging grounds and domestication efforts continue, rather than being brought to Rome in chains and killed as entertainment in the Amphitheatres.

Elephants are arguably already partially domesticated in India though, and I would say said quote from World Animal Protection are politically charged. The decline of Elephant domestication in India was started by British Colonization, after all, undoing thousands of years of Indian efforts due to some so-called Romanticized Euro-centric Naturalists prefers Elephants to be free despite they are obviously already partially domesticated.

Romans used elephants too, they are recorded by the sources both at the battle of Thapsus and at the invasion of Britain under Claudius.

 

[Dolan]

Romans used elephants too, they are recorded by the sources both at the battle of Thapsus and at the invasion of Britain under Claudius.

the key here is Romans tend to not really care about their elephants, as there are no records of Romans actually bother to get sustainable breeding ground for them when they could just import them. And they just put those surplus elephants after military campaign to Amphitheatres, especially amongst the more callous emperors.

The Diadochi on the other hand, set aside breeding grounds in Syria, Nile Delta, and Asia Minor. They also generally took better care of the elephants in their employ too.

Carthage has also been recorded maintaining sizeable breeding herd of the now extinct North African Bush Elephants, which were made extinct by... guess who... Romans, as the later fond to use and kill them on their amphitheatres.

Romans are just one of the worst civilization to rise, ecological-wise. Anything but Romans and their bloodthirsty Amphitheatres, and we could bet that several now extinct species of large and or predatory animals would actually survived until 2019 equivalent ITTL, especially in Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor.

 

[Analytical Engine]

You have to wonder if it is even worth domesticating elephants in the first place.

They take years to reach sexual maturity, have a long gestation period, and females take a long time before their are fertile again. They need huge amounts of food. Not to mention, male elephants are super dangerous during mating season.

There's a reason why the term "white elephant" has the connotations it has. They were given as gifts by rulers (so couldn't be refused), and would have a huge financial cost to the recipient.

Domesticating the elephant, even assuming if it was possible in the first place, would take many, many human lifetimes.

Domestication also has to take into account whether the animal is even worth the effort in the first place.

 

[Ice34]

 

[Milo]

Maybe try breeding some sort pygmy Elephant to make it worth it but you have to make it better and more practical than the horse but that would be difficult

 

[Sertorius126]

the key here is Romans tend to not really care about their elephants, as there are no records of Romans actually bother to get sustainable breeding ground for them when they could just import them. And they just put those surplus elephants after military campaign to Amphitheatres, especially amongst the more callous emperors.

The Diadochi on the other hand, set aside breeding grounds in Syria, Nile Delta, and Asia Minor. They also generally took better care of the elephants in their employ too.

Carthage has also been recorded maintaining sizeable breeding herd of the now extinct North African Bush Elephants, which were made extinct by... guess who... Romans, as the later fond to use and kill them on their amphitheatres.

Romans are just one of the worst civilization to rise, ecological-wise. Anything but Romans and their bloodthirsty Amphitheatres, and we could bet that several now extinct species of large and or predatory animals would actually survived until 2019 equivalent ITTL, especially in Europe, North Africa, and Asia Minor.

There are no written records supporting that the Diadochi were any better at sustaining elephants, if the Romans were using them, it means they took care of them, even for a short while, they wouldn’t risk the elephants to not work when needed to.

The Romans killed the beasts in amphitheaters, noble Persians used to hunt thousands of animals in their own estates, Greeks were proficient hunters too, no ancient civilization cared about ecology or animal welfare. If the Romans should take most of the blame, it’s just because they stayed in power for longer all over the Mediterranean. Another civilization wouldn’t have been much different in their place.

 

[Thanksforallthefish]

You have to wonder if it is even worth domesticating elephants in the first place.

They take years to reach sexual maturity, have a long gestation period, and females take a long time before their are fertile again. They need huge amounts of food. Not to mention, male elephants are super dangerous during mating season.

There's a reason why the term "white elephant" has the connotations it has. They were given as gifts by rulers (so couldn't be refused), and would have a huge financial cost to the recipient.

Domesticating the elephant, even assuming if it was possible in the first place, would take many, many human lifetimes.

Domestication also has to take into account whether the animal is even worth the effort in the first place.

Elephants ARE worth domesticating; their brute strenght, ability to be trained, war potential not to mention status symbols are great benefits.

The thing is that they are HARD to domesticate because of the things you mention, but especially because of the long breeding times. True domestication implies artificial selection of desirable traits (to humans) through breeding. This is very difficult with elephants because gestation times take years and they have been tamed (not the same as domestication like in dogs or cattle) for a comparatively short period of time.

These factors can't be easily changed. You could have more widespread usage of elephants but they won't be any more domesticated than circus bears. Though due to their social nature and high intelligence they are useful.

 

[Analytical Engine]

Elephants ARE worth domesticating; their brute strenght, ability to be trained, war potential not to mention status symbols are great benefits.

Except you can get all that by capturing and taming them, except with significantly less effort.

 

[Byzantion]

The Asian elephant is often called "the world's largest domesticated animal", but they're not actually domesticated. To quote World Animal Protection:



So here's your challenge: have there be truly domesticated elephants in the world.

North African Elephants had been quiete tameable. Would have been facinating if they had been still around.

 

[chornedsnorkack]

12 generations of elephants would be about... hm... 200 years.

Oh yes. Teen elephant bulls are not reproductively successful in the wild because they are not capable of social dominance of 30 year olds.

But they are capable of impregnating females. And in a captive herd where the only fertile males available are a handful of teenages because any adult, socially dominant males are culled from the breeding program - whether "culling" means getting slaughtered, or being returned to the wild - females would probably accept them.
And if, per the goals of the breeding program, the precondition for staying in the breeding program past 20, to age 25 or 30, is keeping tame teenage behaviour towards humans longer, the few tamer bulls would leave disproportionate amounts of offspring.

You might need a breeding herd of, say... 5...10 selected studs at any time, 25...50 females plus the young.

And then you need to stick to the original aims of the program for a couple of centuries.

Not beyond the means of major South Asian kingdoms, many of which owned hundreds of elephants at a time over the two and half millennia. But none of them did seem to take a serious interest in elephant breeding.

"White elephant" was seen as prestigious and valuable above ordinary gray elephants in Tailand. What would happen iif "domestic elephant", like, an elephant whose mother and father were born in captivity and not caught in the wild, or one whose father had not been "ritually polluted" by undergoing musth, were seen as particularly valuable and prestigious for rulers and temples to own?

 

[Plateosaurus]

Maybe you could try this with African Forest Elephants, which are smaller and are less aggressive then bush elephants then what I hear.

 

[Hvalrossen]

Perhaps if elephants were being bred in North Africa prior to the Roman conquest, there would still be a elephant breeding population even if wild elephants dissapeared.

 

[Byzantion]

Perhaps if elephants were being bred in North Africa prior to the Roman conquest, there would still be a elephant breeding population even if wild elephants dissapeared.

I picture them to be very popular by modern day if they had been still alive.

 

[SenatorErnesto]

With enough sustained effort and selective breeding it’s very possible to domesticate elephants.

I think their value just needs to be more heavily focused on there enormous power as beasts or burden rather than beasts of war, the latter just kills to many elephants.