AHC Transylvanian Empire

Make Transylvania the centre of a realm encompassing OTL Hungary and Romania but not be dominated by either ethnonationality.
 
Make Transylvania the centre of a realm encompassing OTL Hungary and Romania but not be dominated by either ethnonationality.

It's an extremely tall order.

Maybe some Celtic or Gothic tribes remain in the area after the fall of Rome, and establish a lasting state in Pannonia?

For this they will have to deal with Slavs, Bulgars and eventually the Magyars. (provided they are not butterflied away, but why would they be?)
 
Well if the Hungarian kings let more german setlters in in the 1200s especially after the mongol invasion then you coud with time make Transilvania german majority. Lets say that the constant tatar and ottoman raids into Hungary, Moldova and Wlachia depopulate the region. Espetialy Transilvania will get hit hard. The saxons weather the attacks in their castles but the common population is taken as slaves die of starvation or get outright killed . To compensate for the los of revenue the Hungarian kings try to attract german settlers. In OTL they brought a lot of people in from the romanian states. So in the folowing centurys thanks to near constant war Transylvania becomes majority german. After the battle of Mohacs and the fall of Hungary Transylvania becomes an Ottoman vasal. 150 years later during the liberation of Hungary by the Austrians the Transylvanian princedom takes over large chunks of Hungary and Romania. If the dinastic union with Poland happens (as it did OTL) there is a big chance that the Ottomans can be rolled back into Asia 200-300 years earlier. The Austrians, Polish, Russian and Transylvania take huge chuncks of the Ottomans. So there you go. A majority german Transylvania with large parts of Hungary and Romania.
 
Well if the Hungarian kings let more german setlters in in the 1200s especially after the mongol invasion then you coud with time make Transilvania german majority. Lets say that the constant tatar and ottoman raids into Hungary, Moldova and Wlachia depopulate the region. Espetialy Transilvania will get hit hard. The saxons weather the attacks in their castles but the common population is taken as slaves die of starvation or get outright killed . To compensate for the los of revenue the Hungarian kings try to attract german settlers. In OTL they brought a lot of people in from the romanian states. So in the folowing centurys thanks to near constant war Transylvania becomes majority german. After the battle of Mohacs and the fall of Hungary Transylvania becomes an Ottoman vasal. 150 years later during the liberation of Hungary by the Austrians the Transylvanian princedom takes over large chunks of Hungary and Romania. If the dinastic union with Poland happens (as it did OTL) there is a big chance that the Ottomans can be rolled back into Asia 200-300 years earlier. The Austrians, Polish, Russian and Transylvania take huge chuncks of the Ottomans. So there you go. A majority german Transylvania with large parts of Hungary and Romania.

The Austrian emperor would claim Transylvania as king of Hungary, as he did OTL. So you would have a German majority Transylvania, that is still part of the Habsburg empire. And probably more loyal than ever.
 
The Austrian emperor would claim Transylvania as king of Hungary, as he did OTL. So you would have a German majority Transylvania, that is still part of the Habsburg empire. And probably more loyal than ever.

Maybe not. For 150-200 years Transylvania would be mostly independente with a royal family ( a POD ) related to Poland and maybe even in a personal union with it. With a stronger Transylvania the war of liberation of Hungary could be just 1 or 2 wars. Maybe taking a decade and not centurys. A more brutal , total war against the Ottomans by the Austrian-Transylvanian - maybe Polish and Russian alliance would leave Austria weaker. The Austrians may claim the Hungarian throne but if Transylvania is supported by Russia and Poland as a counterweight against the Habsburgs the they may ramain independent and with their gains intact. At that point the Austrians don't have the millitary and diplomatic power for a war of conquest against a fellow cristian state. Now the german population of Transylvania would consist of german settlers from all over Germany who would have no real ties to the Austrians. They are the majority, they are in comand and they have had they independence for hundreds of years. Now why would they give up all the power for an emperor 1000 km away? The thing is that they dont need Austrian help after the fall of the Ottomans
 
Maybe not. For 150-200 years Transylvania would be mostly independente with a royal family ( a POD ) related to Poland and maybe even in a personal union with it. With a stronger Transylvania the war of liberation of Hungary could be just 1 or 2 wars. Maybe taking a decade and not centurys. A more brutal , total war against the Ottomans by the Austrian-Transylvanian - maybe Polish and Russian alliance would leave Austria weaker. The Austrians may claim the Hungarian throne but if Transylvania is supported by Russia and Poland as a counterweight against the Habsburgs the they may ramain independent and with their gains intact. At that point the Austrians don't have the millitary and diplomatic power for a war of conquest against a fellow cristian state. Now the german population of Transylvania would consist of german settlers from all over Germany who would have no real ties to the Austrians. They are the majority, they are in comand and they have had they independence for hundreds of years. Now why would they give up all the power for an emperor 1000 km away? The thing is that they dont need Austrian help after the fall of the Ottomans

I think for that to work, Transylvania would have to remain independent of the Ottomans. This may be doable with Polish protection.

But then again, we still have the problem of it being part of the kingdom of Hungary. I don't see how Austria would be any weaker than OTL, especially with active Polish (and Transylvanian) help against the Ottomans. They would claim Transylvania, and the Hungarian nobles would claim Transylvania. With Poland's decline just around the corner (Russia will not be playing nice with them, nor will Sweden), they will become defenceless against imperial power.

Also keep in mind that Russia at this point is neither capable nor willing to project power as far as Transylvania, especially not for helping the Poles.
 
I think for that to work, Transylvania would have to remain independent of the Ottomans. This may be doable with Polish protection.

But then again, we still have the problem of it being part of the kingdom of Hungary. I don't see how Austria would be any weaker than OTL, especially with active Polish (and Transylvanian) help against the Ottomans. They would claim Transylvania, and the Hungarian nobles would claim Transylvania. With Poland's decline just around the corner (Russia will not be playing nice with them, nor will Sweden), they will become defenceless against imperial power.

Also keep in mind that Russia at this point is neither capable nor willing to project power as far as Transylvania, especially not for helping the Poles.


A shorter more costly war would weaken Austria. Maybe France gets involved or some other European power and they attack Austria during the war. Austria still wins but with a to front war its treasury is emty after paying of its soldiers.

Lets say that the Ottomans move differently after the victory at Mohacs. They conquer upper Hungary and are stoped just at the gates of Wien. So now they control All of Hungary exept Transylvania. The Polish seeing this disaster move into Transylvania to protect it from the Ottomans. The Turks at this point have their hands full with hungarian rebels and the Austrian army so they dont dare to move against a at this point neutral Poland. When the turks ragain they power the polish and transylvanian forces are to entranched in Transylvania witch has became a de facto polish puppet state ore protectorate. The polish king weds his doughter ore spare son into the most powerfull Transilanian nobel familly tieing it even closer to Poland. Then during the next 50 -70 years during a period of decline in Polan Transylvania becomes an independent country but tied to Poland.
 
A shorter more costly war would weaken Austria. Maybe France gets involved or some other European power and they attack Austria during the war. Austria still wins but with a to front war its treasury is emty after paying of its soldiers.

Austria was fighting a two front war IOTL. I see no way how Austria would be weaker in this scenario. All things point to them being actually stronger.

Lets say that the Ottomans move differently after the victory at Mohacs. They conquer upper Hungary and are stoped just at the gates of Wien.

You make that sound easy, but there is a good reason why they never quite conquered Royal Hungary. It is a heavily fortified mountainous region propped up with German mercenaries. Also note that Buda is still in Hungarian hands after Mohacs.

So now they control All of Hungary exept Transylvania. The Polish seeing this disaster move into Transylvania to protect it from the Ottomans. The Turks at this point have their hands full with hungarian rebels and the Austrian army so they dont dare to move against a at this point neutral Poland.

Possible, although I know very little of how the situation was on the Polish home front at this point. Still, there was no "Transylvanian throne" they would want to capture. They would want the crown of St. Stephen, and given that the last Hungarian king was Polish, it may even be plausible. However: there were already two candidates for the throne, one being John Zapolya, who ruled in Transylvania. Transylvania and Poland did become intertwined later on, but the other way round: Stefan Batory became king of Poland.

When the turks ragain they power the polish and transylvanian forces are to entranched in Transylvania witch has became a de facto polish puppet state ore protectorate. The polish king weds his doughter ore spare son into the most powerfull Transilanian nobel familly tieing it even closer to Poland. Then during the next 50 -70 years during a period of decline in Polan Transylvania becomes an independent country but tied to Poland.

The question remains: who would acknowledge Transylvanian independence from the Kingdom of Hungary? Any Prince of Transylvania would want the Hungarian throne. Any Hungarian king would want to reunite the country with Transylvania. The Doctrine of the Holy Crown holds the kingdom indivisible.

Poland may hold Transylvania, perhaps with a claim to the rest of Hungary, but they will go down soon, and there would be nothing standing between Transylvania and the Habsburgs.
 
Yes is a tall order the later the POD.
What about a POD meaning a smaller Kingdom of Hungary. Perhaps less Magyars come west and thus less able to penetrate Transylvania.
Could the Cumans establish a state there? Perhaps slavicised like the Bulgars
Then later wars with its neighbours cause it to expand.
 
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