Maybe not quite that implausible.
But it would require a completely different person or at least a completely different situation on his death internally for this to happen, simply because a Timur like OTL wouldn't build a stable empire.
Maybe not quite that implausible.
But it would require a completely different person or at least a completely different situation on his death internally for this to happen, simply because a Timur like OTL wouldn't build a stable empire.
Deleted member 14881
In OTL his Persian Conquests looked holdable, but he sucked at ruling Empires.
Yeah, that pyramid of skulls thing (perhaps taking the hearts and minds idea too literally), together with destroying the irrigation systems in Iraq, doesn't make for a stable empire.
Perhaps if he anticipated Babur and carved out an area in NE India, which more capable successors could expand. Unfortunately he was more of a wrecker than empire builder, a bit like Attila the Hun.
Regards
R
Perhaps if he anticipated Babur and carved out an area in NE India, which more capable successors could expand. Unfortunately he was more of a wrecker than empire builder, a bit like Attila the Hun.
Regards
R
Timur, like Alexander and Genghis Khan was a great conqueror who brought a very vast area of land under his control, but failed to establish a lasting empire. Alexander died too young and did not get enough time to establish himself as an administrator. Hence his generals partitioned the empire among themselves.
Genghis Khan divided his empire among his sons Chagatai, Ogedei and Tolui and the children of his eldest son Jochi who predeceased him. Ogedei was made the Great Khan. His grandson Kublai Khan unified China under him.
Timur also swept like a hurricane destroying everything in his path, but he earned the name of a destroyer more than Alexander or Genghis Khan. His son Shahrukh who followed him was not able like his father. The methods followed by Timur like what he did in Delhi, killing several thousands of people and forming a hill of skulls, never helped empire building. Babur who established the Mughal Dynasty was a descendant of Timur and also Genghis Khan.
Genghis Khan divided his empire among his sons Chagatai, Ogedei and Tolui and the children of his eldest son Jochi who predeceased him. Ogedei was made the Great Khan. His grandson Kublai Khan unified China under him.
Timur also swept like a hurricane destroying everything in his path, but he earned the name of a destroyer more than Alexander or Genghis Khan. His son Shahrukh who followed him was not able like his father. The methods followed by Timur like what he did in Delhi, killing several thousands of people and forming a hill of skulls, never helped empire building. Babur who established the Mughal Dynasty was a descendant of Timur and also Genghis Khan.
Character shapes one's actions, and a different Timur or Alexander the Great or Napoleon is not going to act the same way OTL's did in the first place, which means the situation they're in won't be the same.
I'm not saying you can't have a different Timur in the first place, but would that Timur even rise to power as he did? It's questionable.
Well, Babur was a pure Timurid by his farther's line, he received education traditional for a Timurid, his cultural inclinations and likes were those of the Timurids.
And his court was pure Timurid, his army was usual and traditional for a Timurid. Even his career and life was quite ordinary for a Timurid prince.
So Mughal Empire must be considered as a direct continuation of Timurid Empire. Of course this Empire changed a lot due to the local Indian influence, but it was unavoidable.
What I mean is - Timurid Empire actually held.
Alot of rulers who go crazy and violent tend to get sick and have a high fever at some point, Perhaps that can happen to him, but it calms him down as a result.
You are arguing that near death experiences cannot change people's outlooks on life?
Mmm. Statebuilding nomadic peoples aren't unknown; the Zhungar of Mongolia, for instance, made a pretty good go at trying to build a Central Asian state in the 17th and 18th century. So I think it's possible for a ruler to focus on state building to rise to power.
I am arguing that it is extremely unlikely that someone like Timur is going to become a radically different person because of a near death experience. Someone who is a warrior and raider (from an early age if I'm not mistaken) is going to have had plenty of brushes with Death.
No one said anything about "Statebuilding nomadic people" in general, the comment was on Timur, specifically.
Deleted member 14881
I am starting to think maybe not Timur but one of Timur's descendants like Babur instead of conquering India maybe he can conquer Persia.
That's a little unfair, no? Unpredictable storms, disease, having sex fifteen minutes later or earlier....these are all normal parts of existence. Massive personality changes are rare: at least the sorts that don't involve crippling brain damage.
Bruce
Anyhoo, Timur's son Shah Ruhk managed to hold onto the eastern half of the empire until his death in 1447, and it was a relatively prosperous reign: if his son Ulugh Bey, his only surviving descendant, had been more competent, this might have provided the basis for a long-term Timurid central Asian/Afghan/Persian state, albiet not one as huge as the original empire of Timur.
Bruce
Bruce
Deleted member 14881
If Ulugh Beg was more competent how big would the Empire be
Also how big was Shah Rurk's Kingdom?
Also how big was Shah Rurk's Kingdom?
Deleted member 14881
I was talking about one in Persia and not India I was talking about Timur's origanal's Empire
Personality changes with the POD at conception are more plausible than any other POD. Personality changes with the POD at birth are just as plausible as any other POD, for example a battle going a different way or a disease outbreak that didn't happen.
Shah Rukh's state was most of Central Asia west of Baikal and south of the Baikal-Aral line, the majority of Afghanistan and most of Iran, although losing more of western Iran to the White Sheep Turks in the later parts of his reign. What with the White Sheep Turks and the Uzebeks also becoming a nuisance by the mid-1400s, simply holding what he has inherited will be a big success for *Ulugh. The White Sheep Turks, considering how quickly the Safavids made them their bitches, are probably not a long-term problem: the Uzbeks, likely a bigger issue.
Bruce
I'm just saying it, because the majority of the people here seem to be describing "Mughal-Alpha" as a way to do it.