AHC: Tibetan Dynasty

The challenge if you choose to accept is to have a Chinese dynasty founded by Tibetans, much like the Yuan was founded by Mongolians and the Qing was founded by Manchurians.
The later the POD, the better.
 
The Tibetan Empire was entering its strongest period beginning with the reign of Trisong Detsän (2nd half of the 8th C. CE). OTL the Tibetans took advantage of a serious rebellion (An-Shi rebellion) in T'ang China, invading its heartland and occupying its capital of Chang'an (once the largest city in the World) in 763. They even installed a puppet emperor briefly. The Tibetan hold and influence was tenuous, being both far from its power base and as the rebellion was finally quashed, T'ang power became somewhat revitalized and was able to push the Tibetans out of most of their former territories.

This seems one of the best, if not the best, periods to introduce the POD --- around the time of the rebellion. If the rebellion is strong enough and long enough to fragment China even more than OTL, the Tibetans might be able to rule part (but not all) of T'ang China.

Tibet just was never powerful enough or united enough after the Tibetan Empire fell in the 9th C. to be able to project power further than its immediate periphery.
 
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Weren't the Tangut, whose state in part of north-western China was around until Ghenghis Khan's time, of Tibetan origin?
 
Weren't the Tangut, whose state in part of north-western China was around until Ghenghis Khan's time, of Tibetan origin?

Not really. Tangut was a name used by the Chinese to describe a number of different peoples, including Tibetans. The Tangut who founded Western Xia (the state you're referring to) spoke a language related to Tibetan (but so is Burmese) and in some respects had a hybridized Tibetan/Chinese culture but with an emphasis on the latter. They seemed to have a history of favoring alliances with various Chinese states but apparently not with Tibet.
 
Wasn't the problem that the Tibetans by and large were unwilling to leave Tibet to serve as bureaucrats and administrators in China? Plus their traditional leadership structure didn't fit well atop the Chinese pyramid. Other than that, I agree with Herzen, the late Tang is the best chance for a Tibetan dynasty.

Cheers,
Ganesha
 
Wasn't the problem that the Tibetans by and large were unwilling to leave Tibet to serve as bureaucrats and administrators in China? Plus their traditional leadership structure didn't fit well atop the Chinese pyramid. Other than that, I agree with Herzen, the late Tang is the best chance for a Tibetan dynasty.

Cheers,
Ganesha
Why would Tibetans be willing to leave their country and serve in a foreign country like China? There's also the fact that China's enmity with Tibet by the late Tang mean that neither side exactly want that.

While Tibet could possibly exert a great deal of influence over China, I point out that in their occupation of Chang'an, Tibetans installed a puppet Tang emperor and stuck to Chinese models of governance. So maybe they'd try to control China indirectly.
 
The challenge if you choose to accept is to have a Chinese dynasty founded by Tibetans, much like the Yuan was founded by Mongolians and the Qing was founded by Manchurians.
The later the POD, the better.

Tang is good for a Tibetan conquest, but I doubt Tibet ever had the resources to conquer China. (But then again, neither did the Manchu at first glance).

Alternatively you could have the Mongol Emperors of the Yuan even more obsessed with Tibetan Lamaism than historically, and slowly devolve a lot of power, both economic and administrative, to the lamas. So far so OTL.

Perhaps then, we can have a series of exceptionally capable and ambitious lamas that create a 'lama clique' and manipulate the emperors behind the throne, as well as stabilizing the dynasty. The continued erosion of Mongol power could continue to increase, with the lamas gradually seizing control of the military and killing off all the Mongol princes who didn't agree with them.

The endgame would be for one of the lamas to depose the Mongol emperor - by then a mere formality - and then declare himself ruler of the territories of the Yuan in a 'palace coup'.
 
I could see maybe some Tibetans who'd been living in China for a few generations (and somewhow retaining their Tibetan identity rather than just identifying as Chinese in full) being the leaders of some revolt leading to them becoming the new Imperial Family, however they'd be a Chinese Dynasty of Tibetan descent, not a Tibetan Dynasty ruling China.

Ultimately that's the thing, China, like the United States, is incredibly good at assimilating people, so it's pretty hard to have 'Foreign Dynasties' since those people become Chinese very quickly, even the Qing, who retained their identity non-Chinese the most, were assimilated to a large degree.
 

Nihao

Banned
I could see maybe some Tibetans who'd been living in China for a few generations (and somewhow retaining their Tibetan identity rather than just identifying as Chinese in full) being the leaders of some revolt leading to them becoming the new Imperial Family, however they'd be a Chinese Dynasty of Tibetan descent, not a Tibetan Dynasty ruling China.

Could you give some example? I have never heard of that actually, and I am interested.

Ultimately that's the thing, China, like the United States, is incredibly good at assimilating people, so it's pretty hard to have 'Foreign Dynasties' since those people become Chinese very quickly, even the Qing, who retained their identity non-Chinese the most, were assimilated to a large degree.

That's why Chinese is an civilization, but not a nation.
 
Could you give some example? I have never heard of that actually, and I am interested.

I was just saying an example of something that could happen, I have no idea if such a thing ever came close to happening, though I would'nt be surprised if it came close to happening at some point in the 2,000 year history of Imperial China.


That's why Chinese is an civilization, but not a nation.

I would'nt really say it's a civilization*, but rather a prime example of a cultural entity that's not based on ethnicity.


*I'd say that China is part of a larger East Asian civilization that also encompasses Vietnam, Japan and Korea.
 
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I was just saying an example of something that could happen, I have no idea if such a thing ever came close to happening, though I would'nt be surprised if it did at some point in the 2,000 year history of Imperial China.
It hasn't happened, at least not for any major dynasties.

The closest you can get are the Di and Qiang states in Northern China, which are debated in origin but may have an affinity with Tibetans, or the aforementioned Tanguts.
 
It hasn't happened, at least not for any major dynasties.

The closest you can get are the Di and Qiang states in Northern China, which are debated in origin but may have an affinity with Tibetans, or the aforementioned Tanguts.

Crap, that was supposed to be "I would'nt be surprised if it came close to happening".
 
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