AHC Three Way Wank- Scandinavia

SunDeep

Banned
Your challenge, should you choose to accept it, is to come up with an ATL where the three major nations in Scandinavia- Sweden, Denmark AND Norway- all get wanked relative to OTL by the time we reach the present day. They do all have to be independent nations as well, so having them all under the banner of the Kalmar Union (to the present day) isn't allowed. Would this be possible? And if so, what would be the latest (non-ASB) POD which could set such a TL in motion?
 
Wanking Sweden isn't that hard... Just make them keep Finland (and Karelia), Estonia, Latvia and the area around St. Petersburg and you already have a very good place to start without bothering Denmark or Norway that much.

A Denmark-wank means that they keep Schleswig at least, though more German territories are hard to justify unless you go the "Denmark as a Central-Northern European Protestant hegemon" thing. Otherwise the typical Denmark-wank contains them still controling Norway. Further ways to wank Denmark include a small but notable colonial empire, though a few of the Danish "colonies" would have to be part of Norway in order to wank that.

But seriously, if you make Norway get the continental parts of the territories they wanted under Quisling, plus keeping Iceland, the Faroers and Greenland and you're already in a rather implausible territory post-Kalmar.

So basically wanking two is VERY easy, wanking all three is very hard.
 
Yeah ... other than constant bickering between Denmark and Sweden (its not for nothing it's often said (truthfully?) that they're the two countries with the record of most wars between them) other than a Danish claim on the Swedish Throne and a Swedish want to become the top dog in a area (maybe due to the fact that had suffered under danish yoke, or at least saw it as such, doing Kalmar) and secure their trade routes from danish harasment South to the north germanic states and west into north sea and beyond, they would otherwise be inclined to focus away from each other, Sweden holding Finland and pushing up against Russia and the Baltic countries and prehaps Poland.

Denmark on the other would be much more interested in going small scale colonial (glaring with envy at the Dutch colony processions since they're otherwise rather comparable, at least in terms of who they're otherwise dealing with on that scene), and keep a solid grip on the northernmost Germany, disbanding their personal union with Schleswig, Holstein and Lauenburg incorperating them under the Danish Crown.

Norway on the other hand was very restricted from the decimination of their elite by the plagues, mainly black death, and simply not having a sustainable population to seriously consider it better to get out of the danish sphere (which had provided a fair amount of immigrants and the like following the plagues), as they were concerned that another bigger fish would eat them up and not have such a good relationship as Denmark and Norway had (hell, even as they were all but unified for 500 some years, it was still officially a personal union instead of Norway being integrated into Danish Crown lands at some point)
 

Driftless

Donor
Historically Sweden has been Baltic focused, which is logical based on it's frontage on the Baltic, and the choke point of the Straits around Denmark.

Would there be a notable change if the Swedes possessed Atlantic ports like Tromsø, Narvik, or Petsamo?

That change would certainly be Swedens gain and Norway's loss, which doesn't work to the point of the original post.
 
Perhaps this:

Denmark is a full member of the HRE and its Kings come to dominate the Imperial Election - thus will be looking south more than north
Sweden gains control over Novgorod - it will focus eastward
Norway ends in personal union with Scotland and ends focussed west
 
Perhaps this:

Denmark is a full member of the HRE and its Kings come to dominate the Imperial Election - thus will be looking south more than north

I think we might have to either go back to around 850-866 to pull this off as Otto I conquered Denmark and vassalized it, with Harold Bluetooth succeding in abandoning that yoke concurrent with the Great Slavic war and the early death of Otto II and the long regency following (stop one or more of those things) or somewhere in early 1200s with Valdemar Conquerer succeeding in keeping onto the north german territories he conquered ... although with the Emperor abandoning the claims in the Golden bull of 1214, it would be questionable if Denmark would become a full member or if they would stay out of the direct fray
 
Sweden rules the Baltic (OTL's Baltic states, Finland), possibly preventing Russia from having a direct Baltic outlet.

Denmark rules much of northern Germany. (Platt speaking areas, say, maybe absorbs Protestant Germany, or e.g. Lutheran Germany, or its equivalent, probably, since any PoD is likely before the Reformation.)

Norway settles OTL's (eastern) Canada.
 

Driftless

Donor
Weren't some of the Southwestern provinces of Sweden linguistically & culturally closer to Denmark or Norway? Scania, Halland, Bohuslann (sp). Have Denmark or Norway maintain a political connection past the 17th century.

Increased control over the passage to the Baltic, Scania is a good agricultural area.
 
Weren't some of the Southwestern provinces of Sweden linguistically & culturally closer to Denmark or Norway? Scania, Halland, Bohuslann (sp)

Scania, Halland and Blekinge were Danish from the beginning of the known period for the region (~900) to 1648 where Sweden conquered them, and part of the reason why the capital was placed in Copenhagen and not say Roskilde (Copenhagen being the center of the kingdom before losing those). Bohuslän were Norwegian for approximately the same period of time.

... And Denmark and Norway was politically connected to 1814 (by being in Personal union for ~450 years). So they were connected past the 17th century.
 

U.S David

Banned
Denmark gets Germany, Swedan gets Finland and the Baltic States, and Norway gets Iceland, Greenland, Ireland, and Great Britan.
 
Wanking Sweden isn't that hard... Just make them keep Finland (and Karelia), Estonia, Latvia and the area around St. Petersburg and you already have a very good place to start without bothering Denmark or Norway that much.

So basically wanking two is VERY easy, wanking all three is very hard.


This. If Sweden held those territories, their sphere of interest would also be eastwards and north-eastwards.

With a POD before the Black Death, Norway could retain Iceland and Greenland, with some expansion into North America. Basically a North Atlantic , almost thalassocratic, sphere of interest. With a POD further back, Norway could also do well in the British Isles, but I suspect the centre of gravity would inevitably shift south, much like the OTL Scotland-England union.

Sweden and Norway could thus have a mountain range as a good natural border, and interests in opposite directions, minimizing conflict.

Denmark...its hard to see a situation where two strong powers does not result in the reduction of the third. Denmark probably needs interests and territories further south in Europe. They did almost join the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth OTL I seem to remember, but that'll be butterflied.

How about a Denmark that loses the islands on its west coast to Sweden, but keeps Schleswig-Holstein and Lower Saxony as well as absorbing the area that OTL became the Dutch Republic? Not a massive realm by any chance, but very fertile. Both the Dutch and Danes separately made an impression on European history.

You'd probably have a similar history of conflict between Denmark and Sweden to OTL, Sweden will want to control the entrance to the Baltic. Both nations will have more manpower to throw at each other. Maybe Norway palys the two off each other, keeping either from winning?
 
They did almost join the Polish-Lithuanian commonwealth OTL I seem to remember, but that'll be butterflied.

Thats the first time i've ever heard about this ... the closest i can remember is the very short-lived personal union between P-L Commonwealth and Sweden under Vasa
 
Thats the first time i've ever heard about this ... the closest i can remember is the very short-lived personal union between P-L Commonwealth and Sweden under Vasa

Never heard of it either.

In Umbrals scenario mentioning Denmark loosing the islands and Scania to Sweden seems a bit weird, especially as it would draw an Eastern focused Sweden more south.
Beside Denmark without the islands are really not Denmark I would guess it would be called something else especially if it takes substantial parts in the low counties, further more a Denmark without the islands would definitely go to war with Sweden over the islands drawing Denmark north/east.

A Denmark with the islands and also with Scania could theoretical ignore Sweden and focus just on Northern Germany and by that you gain 3 Scandinavian powers:

Norway's Island kingdom. Norway, Iceland, Greenland, Orkney, Shetland, Faeroe islands and maybe some more Scottish islands.

Sweden's Baltic Kingdom. Sweden, Gotland, Finland, Karelia, Estonia, Latvia and the area around St. Petersburg.

Denmark's North German Kingdom. Denmark, Scania, Schleswig-Holstein, Mecklenburg, Bremen, Oldenburg and Rügen.

For this to work you need to stop Denmark seeing the Swedish kings as usurpers, and therefor stop them trying to get the throne back, you also need to stop the Swedish kings from wanting to gain Scania, also they probably need to accept the Sound toll.

making Denmark even lose Scania (a core Danish territory) will draw Denmark into war with the occupier, practically making 3 Scandinavian powers
impossible.

Denmark focusing this much on Northern Germany would probably transform Denmark from a Scandinavian country to a "Northern Bavaria"
 
for clarity ... Scania was as much (if not much more) core Danish, as Normandy were core French ... and normandy denying to dance to the french king's tune was one of the reguar casus bellis between England and France
 
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