AHC: The US with a high speed rail system as prolific as in East Asia or western Europe

Riain

Banned
This was Obama's HSR plan, and IIRC it was to be a mix of approaches with speeds of 110mph (they called that higher speed rail) and 125mph initially as well as the likes of the Acelca's 150mph and Texas' 205mph and California's 220mph new build proposals. This touches a lot of states, not all for sure but enough that Federal funding isn't vastly unfair.

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I thought it was fairly obvious that I was talking about the situation in the 1950s, when the Interstate network didn't exist. At the time, the railroads, U.S. Highways, and water transport did exist, and could transport goods just fine. So by the arguments being advanced in this thread, there was no need to spend boatloads of federal cash on building new Interstates. If Kansans wanted to transport goods better, they should have just upgraded their U.S. Highways instead of sucking at the federal teat, etc. etc.
Actually the old state & federal highways could not transport goods just fine. As someone who lived back in the 1960s I can clearly remember the overloaded roads and crawling traffic on a multitude of highways that were obsolete and undersized. There badly needed to be massive investment in transportation infrastructure. As it was airports and interstate highways were chosen over rail. Maybe rail would have been better, I cant say, but the highways were overloaded & rapidly getting worse. If we were to stick with automobiles the freeways could not be built fast enough. Theres also the argument of a unified national design for those over a patchwork of state projects serving inevitably regional or local needs and underserving longer distant transport. Thats one of the reasons the Federal highways system was built. By the 1920s it was clear the state highway projects were not going to serve national traffic adequately. Some states barely had highway programs then. Jump ahead thirty years and many states still were badly underfunding their roads. Fiscally conservative old crocs dominating state and local governments were loathe to fund large scale construction projects.
 
Seriously, I have to ask this: Why are people so against the idea in the first place?
Because it is godawful expensive (CA HSR is now estimated to go over $100 billion, within a few months or a year at most they will probably come up with an estimate of $125 billion or $150 billion) and there is a lot of better things to do with the money. Contrary to what you seem to think the US does not have infinite wealth. You have to make choices on what is worthwhile and what is not. This is not worthwhile.
 
This was Obama's HSR plan, and IIRC it was to be a mix of approaches with speeds of 110mph (they called that higher speed rail) and 125mph initially as well as the likes of the Acelca's 150mph and Texas' 205mph and California's 220mph new build proposals. This touches a lot of states, not all for sure but enough that Federal funding isn't vastly unfair.

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It failed because no one particularly wanted it. States like WI turned down the money and turning it down wasn't even controversial. Unless the US government picked up 90%+ of the tab (including maintenance) HSR to Minneapolis made no sense for Wisconsin. The trains would have ran empty and Wisconsin would have had to pay a large amount of money to help maintain useless track.
 

Riain

Banned
Because it is godawful expensive (CA HSR is now estimated to go over $100 billion, within a few months or a year at most they will probably come up with an estimate of $125 billion or $150 billion) and there is a lot of better things to do with the money. Contrary to what you seem to think the US does not have infinite wealth. You have to make choices on what is worthwhile and what is not. This is not worthwhile.

CA's super high end HSR is expensive, amazingly so.

However upgrading existing class 5 railroads (90mph) to class 7 (125mph) in suitable areas is not nearly as costly, its horses for courses.
 

Riain

Banned
Actually the old state & federal highways could not transport goods just fine. As someone who lived back in the 1960s I can clearly remember the overloaded roads and crawling traffic on a multitude of highways that were obsolete and undersized. There badly needed to be massive investment in transportation infrastructure. As it was airports and interstate highways were chosen over rail. Maybe rail would have been better, I cant say, but the highways were overloaded & rapidly getting worse. If we were to stick with automobiles the freeways could not be built fast enough. Theres also the argument of a unified national design for those over a patchwork of state projects serving inevitably regional or local needs and underserving longer distant transport. Thats one of the reasons the Federal highways system was built. By the 1920s it was clear the state highway projects were not going to serve national traffic adequately. Some states barely had highway programs then. Jump ahead thirty years and many states still were badly underfunding their roads. Fiscally conservative old crocs dominating state and local governments were loathe to fund large scale construction projects.

There is no doubt that the roads and airports needed upgrading in a huge way. If anything was done wrong it was not sufficiently recognizing passenger rail's niche and maintaining that alongside the major investment in road and air. If commuter and medium distance passenger rail received a small slice of the road and air pie they could have maintained a competitive level of service. This can be justified on capacity grounds, road and airports have capacity limits and approaching these limits the ROI for improved rail service can be a better choice for the overall transport dollar allocation.
 
It failed because no one particularly wanted it. States like WI turned down the money and turning it down wasn't even controversial. Unless the US government picked up 90%+ of the tab (including maintenance) HSR to Minneapolis made no sense for Wisconsin. The trains would have ran empty and Wisconsin would have had to pay a large amount of money to help maintain useless track.
You might want to look at who the Governor was who turned it down before you go judging the money. Republican Governors during the Obama Administration turned down federal money for all kinds of worthy things just to make political points.
 
CA's super high end HSR is expensive, amazingly so.

However upgrading existing class 5 railroads (90mph) to class 7 (125mph) in suitable areas is not nearly as costly, its horses for courses.

Even then you are talking about spending billions for trains that will run at best half empty. The train companies dumped their passenger trains ASAP for a reason. Spend the same or less money on local trams, elevated trains, subways etc. and you will be able to serve ten times the people because they will run full.
 
You might want to look at who the Governor was who turned it down before you go judging the money. Republican Governors during the Obama Administration turned down federal money for all kinds of worthy things just to make political points.
Like I said it wasn't even controversial in Wisconsin. There was little outcry even from Democrats. No one wanted it. HSR in Wisconsin gives it NOTHING!!! Outside of maybe a route to Chicago it is completely and utterly useless. Wisconsin has all of one big city, Milwaukee. The line ending at Milwaukee might make sense for Wisconsin, west of there is nothing of note. Unless the US government picks up virtually the entire maintenance expense it is a dead loss for Wisconsin.
 
CA's super high end HSR is expensive, amazingly so.

However upgrading existing class 5 railroads (90mph) to class 7 (125mph) in suitable areas is not nearly as costly, its horses for courses.
The answer here is, it depends. Back in 2012, Amtrak laid out a plan to upgrade the NEC that included replacing several bridges and tunnels, straightening the track and several other improvements that would allow them to reach 220 MPH and cut travel time between Philadelphia and Washington from 93 minutes to 54. Total cost? 151 billion USD for a total track length of 438 miles. Now, that was from almost ten years ago. It's probably gone up since then.
 

marathag

Banned
However upgrading existing class 5 railroads (90mph) to class 7 (125mph) in suitable areas is not nearly as costly, its horses for courses.
useless, if passenger train still being lower priority to a freight train hauling lumber and lube oil.
Need to have their own right of way with those higher speed tracks on them.
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after 60 years or Mergers, only the best routes remained, other abandoned to worse grades and curves.

With the Milwaukee Road(South half), Chicago&Nortwestern (most of the State) and Soo Line(North half) all merged out of existence, there was a lot of duplicate rail, with the UP getting rid of most of the C&NW holdings, and BNSF, CN and CP taking the best bits of what was left, and abandoning the remainder

The best potential high speed Right of Ways are still in operation, running freight, and they aren't for sale.

EDIT Full map
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marathag

Banned
The answer here is, it depends. Back in 2012, Amtrak laid out a plan to upgrade the NEC that included replacing several bridges and tunnels, straightening the track and several other improvements that would allow them to reach 220 MPH and cut travel time between Philadelphia and Washington from 93 minutes to 54. Total cost? 151 billion USD for a total track length of 438 miles. Now, that was from almost ten years ago. It's probably gone up since then.
Upgrading the NEC makes the most sense of any spending of money on HSR in the USA, because it also has the public transportation to feed it
 
@Johnrankins We get it man, you don't like this idea. Clearly many of the rest of us disagree, so can you please let the rest of us discuss the OP's thread?

The thing is you are looking at the wrong problem. It isn't just politics , it's economics. You are trying to get huge sums of money (trillions of dollars) from places that get no benefit from it. Look at the map provided Rian showed. St Paul makes no sense, Eugene makes no sense, Buffalo makes no sense, KC makes no sense, Tulsa and Birmingham make no sense, Raleigh and Savanah make no sense. There is nothing around those cities close enough to justify the huge cost. They were just tacked on in a futile attempt to get votes from those areas.

The NEC (the only area where it remotely makes sense) could have had better rails if they wanted decades ago by biting the bullet and doing it themselves instead of trying to rope everyone else into paying for it. The five or six states that might benefit could get together , form a regional authority with maybe a small Federal Government agency to oversee disputes, and build it together. I will have to give CA credit for one thing, at least they are trying to do so themselves without roping everyone else in.
 
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Seriously, I have to ask this: Why are people so against the idea in the first place?
Personally, I have nothing against HSR, and even wish my area had one. I've just been pointing out how the feds usually decide on what to fund, aka the Representatives and Senators deciding if it's in the interest of their constituents. There's more Representatives and Senators outside the area served than inside so motion is DoA.

Should Washington not get involved with the Coast Guard? It means nothing to landlocked states.
Washington is a landlocked state?
 

Puzzle

Donor
One thing in these train threads that often gets overlooked is how great cars are. I find the idea of a train pretty neat, but when I drive I can go with four other people for the same exact price as one and get from door to door without ever carrying my luggage. Sure there's costs built in that I'm overlooking, but it's really nice to not deal with random strangers, have your own climate control, not be stuck to a schedule, and lately not having to wear a mask for hours. The highways aren't all a big conspiracy by Standard Oil and Detroit.
 
Now here's an interesting question, is the Acela part of the problem?

It's hard to muster the political will (let alone the sympathy votes of other reps and sens) for a huge investment in to your passenger rail service, when you already have the best passenger rail service in the country, and it's already had some fairly recent investments.

Or in zoomer speak:

child: "Mom can we have HSR?"

mom: "No dear, we have HSR at home."

HSR at home: *frequently runs late* *average speed of 70 miles per hour*
 
Kudos to Puzzle. Rail of any sort is perfect for the single passenger going from central city to central city on private or government business. It is inferior to the automobile for the multi-person family on a pleasure trip.
 
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