AHC: The U.S. as a pariah regime

One side effect, if this US gets fewer immigrants- it might make an 1848 scenario, especially if delayed, bloodier and more likely to succeed, because the US was a release valve for pressures on the conservative regimes, especially since it was the middle classes and folks of ability who tended to immigrate on most cases- which are also the classes most likely to succeed in rebellion against a regime.

It is going to be hard for the US to be truly loathed- it's too far away and too weak early on to be much of a concern. The US didn't even get full diplomatic status in AH until around 1900 or so because it wasn't viewed as important enough. Also, the US is going to have a strong isolationist streak no matter what, any naval buildup puts it in direct conflict with the UK, which they would lose until 1900 or so at the earliest, and to intervene in Europe they would need to build a navy that would be on par with the UK or at least France, and any intervention that had the blessing of the UK wouldn't need the US as the UK could do it by themselves.
 
Make John C. Calhoun president.
He'd be a one term president oft at war with his own party as well as the opposition. He may have been a radical in his day, but he wouldn't have the legacy to create a true pariah state. Anything major regarding slavery he'd attempt would be battled out in the courts, Congress and the Senate.
 

Wallet

Banned
Have the Revolution be longer, only ending after a French-Spanish fleet land on Great Britain. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armada_of_1779

The Americans get Canada. The British get pissed she barely sign a peace treaty. They constantly harass American merchant ships on and off for the next few years.

With Canada and a mad Britain, the US is stronger and has a grudge so they supports the French Revolution and join the Napoleon wars. The coalition beats Napoleon and the council of Europe cuts off relations with the US.

The US assist in Latin American liberation, but decided to start annexing Mexico and Latin America. Eventually they go into Asia.
 
Have the Revolution be longer, only ending after a French-Spanish fleet land on Great Britain. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armada_of_1779

The Americans get Canada. The British get pissed she barely sign a peace treaty. They constantly harass American merchant ships on and off for the next few years.

With Canada and a mad Britain, the US is stronger and has a grudge so they supports the French Revolution and join the Napoleon wars. The coalition beats Napoleon and the council of Europe cuts off relations with the US.

The US assist in Latin American liberation, but decided to start annexing Mexico and Latin America. Eventually they go into Asia.

I don't see USA being cabable do that.
 
Nuclear War between the USSR and USA during the Cold War. Despite the nukes and the following nuclear fallout, the USA still survives but is taken over by radicals (right wing nutters, fundamentalist extremists etc.), becoming a pariah-state in the New World Order.
 
A much longer and more bloody civil war. The North still wins of course but takes everything from the South, a long marshal law, then turn towards Mexico. When Mexico has been bashed time to look north...
 

Wallet

Banned
Have the war of 1812 be a complete disaster. New England (also NY/NJ) secede and the British take Wisconsin and Michigan.

The now southern dominated United States extends slavery to all of its states and territories. Mexico is completely annexed and many dark skin Mexicans are enslaved and the "US" moves into Latin America to spread slavery. The US creates puppet states in South America that are all slave owning like OTL Brazil.

In the 1900s, the US expands slavery into the Philippines and Hawaii.

In the alt-US, most immigrantion would go to New England, Canada, or Argentina.
 
Nuclear War between the USSR and USA during the Cold War. Despite the nukes and the following nuclear fallout, the USA still survives but is taken over by radicals (right wing nutters, fundamentalist extremists etc.), becoming a pariah-state in the New World Order.

In an AH book I remember reading, Kennedy is killed by a missile launched from Cuba, LeMay kills 80% of the Soviet population, and a generation later the UN condemns the US for genocide.
 

Deleted member 67076

Have the war of 1812 be a complete disaster. New England (also NY/NJ) secede and the British take Wisconsin and Michigan.

The now southern dominated United States extends slavery to all of its states and territories. Mexico is completely annexed and many dark skin Mexicans are enslaved and the "US" moves into Latin America to spread slavery. The US creates puppet states in South America that are all slave owning like OTL Brazil.

In the 1900s, the US expands slavery into the Philippines and Hawaii.

In the alt-US, most immigrantion would go to New England, Canada, or Argentina.
Hows the US supposed to be able to conquer all that territory if they lose their industrial heartland and most of their immigrant population?
 

Wallet

Banned
Hows the US supposed to be able to conquer all that territory if they lose their industrial heartland and most of their immigrant population?
They still have Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Missouri, and Iowa for industry but its influence won't be too strong.

Even then, a rag tag group of rebels in Texas defeated Santa Anna. An actual army would wipe the floor in Mexico. OTL Mexican-American war most of the troops and generals came from the south anyway.
 

Deleted member 67076

They still have Ohio, Pennsylvania, Illinois, Missouri, and Iowa for industry but its influence won't be too strong.

Even then, a rag tag group of rebels in Texas defeated Santa Anna. An actual army would wipe the floor in Mexico. OTL Mexican-American war most of the troops and generals came from the south anyway.
But lacking the immigrants, these areas won't develop as powerful an internal market.

A rag tag army caught the Mexican rebels almost literally with their pants down. Nor is the perfect storm of civil war and revolting provinces guaranteed for the army as it marches down to Mexico city.

Furthermore, taking the country =/= holding it permanently.

Especially when the US is smaller, weaker, and lacks the industrial power it did OTL. Good luck taking a country of 7 million 1/3 the size of the US without the structural advantages of manpower, money and industry OTL had. If the French couldn't keep down the Mexicans, why would a weaker America?
 
America could be a political pariah if slavery wasn't abolished or jim crow continued and or was more influential. combine that with imperialist behavior and a more popular soviet union. it wont lessen the power that the united states wields, but it would lessen the number of allies that it has for staging.

make it end of WW II, minorities return from war, the 50's go on .. MLK and X and others are killed, JFK killed, civil rights gets the hard hand. America turns more and more authoritarian to control its minority populations in response. this will sap the economy and of which one would expect a much more xenophobic America with much tighter boarder and immigration policies.

just for giggles and I know its unknowable, but have AIDS start during or following the war. infecting poorer regions and groups, this would also keep the old school white fear at high level.
So essentially The East is Red?

PoD is Stalin helps China with resources, winning the PRC the Korean War. Due to Soviet airpower, Chinese military strength,
and good diplomacy, the war is resolved without nukes being used outside of Korea. (Which failed, with the only real casualty of note being Mao Anying) Taiwan is surrendered in exchange for the 49th Parallel in Korea.

As such, McCarthy wins the election. The Vietnam War kicks off shortly after. McCarthy responds with nuclear holocaust, glassing northern Vietnam, and attempting to glass Southern China. He is stopped by his government, who aren't mass murderers.

Repeated defeats and brutality have weakened American resolve, and the PoWs from China come home. A fair amount of them have been radicalized by torture, and are causing a lot of problems. On top of this, American repression in Cuba is hurting its image. This results in fewer nations working with them in SA,and several nations turn communist, nationalizing key companies to the American economy.

Between radicalized veterans, economic depression, and steadily worsening race relations, the USA slips into chaos. Red Guards and Nazis clash in the streets. Trials have become shams. Frustrated citizens form paramilitary, and presidential candidate are turning as bad as FaT. American power is at a global low, and her troubles have made her into a pariah state.

TL;DR: Massive Chinawank makes USA into despised shithole.
 
Hows the US supposed to be able to conquer all that territory if they lose their industrial heartland and most of their immigrant population?

US should still be able to defeat Mexico without the Northeast, and would still get immigrants since New England would be pretty small. That said, it's not practical due to population concerns. You can only hold so much land with so many whites.

Ironically, this rump US wouldn't be as much of a basketcase as the South was traditionally I believe- largely due to the slavery question being settled early on.
 
US should still be able to defeat Mexico without the Northeast, and would still get immigrants since New England would be pretty small. That said, it's not practical due to population concerns. You can only hold so much land with so many whites.

Ironically, this rump US wouldn't be as much of a basketcase as the South was traditionally I believe- largely due to the slavery question being settled early on.

Doubt on the "should", but even so, wouldn't the circumstances for war be quite different in such a situation? Perhaps not even there?

The events described are quite a big change. It's bound to affect the Anglo-settlement of Texas (which was, after all, the starting point of the US-Mexican land disputes).
 
The Anglo settlement of Texas- there's no reason to butterfly that out- it still happens at some point, maybe a few years later , but it will happen.

A rump US without New England will be looking south more- especially if it's more of a slave country.
 
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