With a POD of 1453, you’r challenge is to have the Three Romes (Rome, Constantinople, and Moscow) be owned by a single empire all at the same time. Bonus points if this empire survives to the present day with the Three Romes inside it’s borders. So which countries would be the best cannidates for this challenge?
AHC: The Three Romes in one Empire
- Thread starter The_Russian
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Napoleonic France. I doubt they could hold all three for more than a flash but with a 1453 POD it's the most probable. Unless you want to go crazy buffing the Ottomans or convert them to Christianity.
Ok, but I don’t think it’s possible for him to live past 1453.
. Not a bad idea to have him conquer The three Romes but I’m looking for something after the fall of Constantinople if it’s possible.Kind of hard, given that my preferred PoD to accomplish this in the late medieval era (an Ottoman Wank) would be best started with Tamerlane...
Still not impossible, and fitting given the EU achievement. Ottoman Rome is difficult but not impossible- have their expedition to Otranto arrive earlier.
You need to crush Venice and/or Spain, or else get them to step aside somehow... maybe France goes Protestant during the Italian Wars and agrees to split Italy?
Protestant France takes Milan and the Low Countries and carves out Catalonia/Aragon as client states, decisively defeating the Habsburgs and opening the door to Ottoman Vienna/Southern Italy.
Moscow is a bit harder, and probably needs a Crimea-Wank, then have said Crimea get absorbed into the Ottoman Blob in the 18th century or so.
Still not impossible, and fitting given the EU achievement. Ottoman Rome is difficult but not impossible- have their expedition to Otranto arrive earlier.
You need to crush Venice and/or Spain, or else get them to step aside somehow... maybe France goes Protestant during the Italian Wars and agrees to split Italy?
Protestant France takes Milan and the Low Countries and carves out Catalonia/Aragon as client states, decisively defeating the Habsburgs and opening the door to Ottoman Vienna/Southern Italy.
Moscow is a bit harder, and probably needs a Crimea-Wank, then have said Crimea get absorbed into the Ottoman Blob in the 18th century or so.
So with if the POD is pushed back to the mideval ages what other possible empires can get the Three Romes?
Ok, but I don’t think it’s possible for him to live past 1453.
The only (un)realistic option would be an overwhelming European conquest by the "Super-Ottomans". With some stretch of imagination conquest of Italy, or at least part of it, can be imagined (for example, the Ottomans drop all other issues and proceed advancing from their base at Otranto; of course, it assumes that they keep sending new troops there). Why would they bother with conquering Moscow circa XV century is anybody's guess but, let's say that because Great Princedom of Moscow is paying tribute to the Crimean Khanate it can be considered a Crimean vassal and because Crimea is Ottoman vassal, the Muscovite state is Ottoman vassal.
There was a rumor that Ivan the Terrible had been planning to leave his Tsardom to Austrian Archduke (Ernest?). Which leaves Hapsburgs with a simple task of conquering the Rome and (piece of cake) Istanbul.
The Mongols. Not that in the XIII century Moscow amounted to any type of "Rome".
I was planning to write scenario which would cover something similar but keep postponing from day to day.
I kinda meant what ‘what other empires’ as in what other empires that haven’t been mentioned. But yea. Moscow couldnt claim to be the Third Rome at that time, or even amount to it. Could the Byzantine Empire expand as far as Moscow (I dunno maybe Kievan-Rus somehow joins the Byzantine Empire) if the POD is pushed back? I just wanted it to be after 1453 to be a challenge but seeing as that has already been answered I’ll allow it to be pushed back.
Greece gets Istanbul during WWI and ethnically cleanses the Turkish population. This causes few butterflies in the major European countries. As a second POD, the USSR sweeps through Europe during WWII, including Italy. A communist revolution occurs in Greece and Turkey is unable to capitalize to regain Istanbul. Alternatively, Istanbul could go red through a Turkish communist revolution, replacing Ataturk.
There you go, all three Romes within the Soviet "empire".
There you go, all three Romes within the Soviet "empire".
Nice. A POD after 1900. I’ll count Greece and Italy becoming Soviet satellites as fulfilling the requirements, but is there any way to make them become full SSRs or is that ASB territory?
If Roger Crowley is to be believed, your PoD could be the successful defense of Constantinople (as in, a few more days) by Constantine. The viziers were on the cusp of civil war, Mehmed is meant to have been at risk of being overthrown for the sheer number of resources thrown at this conquest.
Cue a civil war of the Ottomans, which crucially leaves Constantinople in Christian hands (and depending on the chaos in detail) in a position to take some small advantage of the civil war to strengthen themselves, perhaps retaking Athens and some other territories. I'm personally a fan of "It tears the Ottomans apart", so lets work with minor PoDs between the Viziers and the Ottomans subjects to ensure that happens, so free Bulgaria, multiple Turkish Beyliks, etc.
This opens the door for potentially a marriage, or an alliance of this Neo-Roman state and (say) Russia. Now just to ensure you have them both in the same Empire, and also to grant Moscow the title of 3rd Rome, have a Russo-Roman dynasty replace/become the Palialogoi, and declare Moscow the Third Rome, effectively naming the Grand Duke of Moscovy the Co-Emperor of Rhomanion in the North. (i.e. just a rebranding there, effectively Russia has this Roman state as a satellite state that it supports to ensure access to the Med, and to secure its southern flank).
At which point you've got a stronger Russia, no Ottomans, and someone able to effectively bankroll a new Roman Period. Russia can threaten Poland in the East, and the Romans can from the South, completely different armies, two different campaigns, splitting the Polish, or after that, the HRE - allowing the Romans to march into Italy, whilst Russia would be able to ensure two-front wars.
Eventually you'll have someone try to rule all of them from one place - and the likely place is Constantinople, or to please the Russians, Sevastopol. The Black Sea really is a potential beating heart for this union, as assuming the Caucauses are taken at some point, they'd jointly rule it, and it'd be a major population hub, fed by the Black Soil of Ukraine, it would also be one of the most secure regions of the union as well, as it is deep in their territory, or behind mountains. So both of these cities makes sense.
As an aside, this union is probably capable of uniting the entire of Europe by force given time - which solves their mutual security problems. The geopolitical threats in this scenario are the people in the Eurasian Plain, excluding the Russians, but with the ability to fight (albiet disjointedly) on all their fronts at once. A European conquest (and Med) basically leaves no land border to be concerned about, instead it relies on securing seaways - i.e. Britain, the Baltic and its rivers. This could be Europes "China".
TL;DR - Save the Romans long enough for Russia to become Co-Emperor/Co-Empire. If stablised, the future for a Roman-Russian Union would likely point right at your challenge. The desire to unite the Three Romes. (Hell, you could actually achieve that, and have the WRE, ERE, and NRE, even if the NRE is called the Russian Empire).
(I'll admit there is a LOT of minor PoDs needed to make this work, especially just to have the Romans survive. I'd personally go with Mehmed and his heir dying rapidly after 1453, perhaps in a poorly-supported coup - but I reckon it ticks all the boxes).
Cue a civil war of the Ottomans, which crucially leaves Constantinople in Christian hands (and depending on the chaos in detail) in a position to take some small advantage of the civil war to strengthen themselves, perhaps retaking Athens and some other territories. I'm personally a fan of "It tears the Ottomans apart", so lets work with minor PoDs between the Viziers and the Ottomans subjects to ensure that happens, so free Bulgaria, multiple Turkish Beyliks, etc.
This opens the door for potentially a marriage, or an alliance of this Neo-Roman state and (say) Russia. Now just to ensure you have them both in the same Empire, and also to grant Moscow the title of 3rd Rome, have a Russo-Roman dynasty replace/become the Palialogoi, and declare Moscow the Third Rome, effectively naming the Grand Duke of Moscovy the Co-Emperor of Rhomanion in the North. (i.e. just a rebranding there, effectively Russia has this Roman state as a satellite state that it supports to ensure access to the Med, and to secure its southern flank).
At which point you've got a stronger Russia, no Ottomans, and someone able to effectively bankroll a new Roman Period. Russia can threaten Poland in the East, and the Romans can from the South, completely different armies, two different campaigns, splitting the Polish, or after that, the HRE - allowing the Romans to march into Italy, whilst Russia would be able to ensure two-front wars.
Eventually you'll have someone try to rule all of them from one place - and the likely place is Constantinople, or to please the Russians, Sevastopol. The Black Sea really is a potential beating heart for this union, as assuming the Caucauses are taken at some point, they'd jointly rule it, and it'd be a major population hub, fed by the Black Soil of Ukraine, it would also be one of the most secure regions of the union as well, as it is deep in their territory, or behind mountains. So both of these cities makes sense.
As an aside, this union is probably capable of uniting the entire of Europe by force given time - which solves their mutual security problems. The geopolitical threats in this scenario are the people in the Eurasian Plain, excluding the Russians, but with the ability to fight (albiet disjointedly) on all their fronts at once. A European conquest (and Med) basically leaves no land border to be concerned about, instead it relies on securing seaways - i.e. Britain, the Baltic and its rivers. This could be Europes "China".
TL;DR - Save the Romans long enough for Russia to become Co-Emperor/Co-Empire. If stablised, the future for a Roman-Russian Union would likely point right at your challenge. The desire to unite the Three Romes. (Hell, you could actually achieve that, and have the WRE, ERE, and NRE, even if the NRE is called the Russian Empire).
(I'll admit there is a LOT of minor PoDs needed to make this work, especially just to have the Romans survive. I'd personally go with Mehmed and his heir dying rapidly after 1453, perhaps in a poorly-supported coup - but I reckon it ticks all the boxes).
Interesting. I like the idea of the Byzantines surviving by taking advantadge of the turmoil in this ALT-Ottoman empire, and unifying with Russia, but taking ALL of Europe and the Mediterranean seems like a stretch. Especially with the discovery of the New World and countries becoming colonial empires (England, France, Spain, and Portugal.) Speaking of which, I think an empire like this could take more territory in the Americas than just Alaska. I think Constantinople would be the more likely capital since it has a strategic and historical importance.
P.S. If this were a TL I would read it. Good job.
In fairness, I was looking at the LOOOOONG game here, and infinite-term geopolitical goals. Not "Lets do it be 1600". As you've said, they're likely to be penned in by very rich western Europeans.
As to colonies, I'm not sure that America is going to be a realistic goal. This Alt-Roman Empire is just as penned in, even on the Med, as the Russians. More likely IMO is Greek and Russian colonies in the East Indies and Africa.
(Shush, don't tell anyone, yet)
Ok. It has the potential but there’s no way to accurately guess how such an empire would function in the modern world.
I’m just think there’s no reason the Russians wouldn’t colonize Siberia earlier ITTL since they are even more powerful than OTL. With an earlier Russian (or Neo Roman
) Siberia the earlier the Russians colonize Alaska and other parts of the West coast. I’m not saying they would dominate the Americas or even come close. I’m just saying that they are more influential. A BEST CASE scenario would be they win a war against Spain and take California (on the verge of being a wank), Worst case, the have Alaska with some more forts on the west coast. They probably will be included in the scramble for Africa. Especially if they expand into North Africa before the late 1800s which seems easy since it would have a coast on the Mediterranean with the Byzantines retaking lost lands and further expansion into Italy for Rome. If this empire has a good navy it could send settlers to the East Indies without other nations wanting to start a war.The problem is that in this period "Russia" well, isn't Russia. It wasn't until the Deluge that Poland was really crippled, to say nothing of the fact that the Khanates are still an obstacle.
Any Russian centered empire is also going to have a harder time conquering their way to Italy than the reverse IMHO. Theres fewer states (though larger and generally poorer ones) going from the Mediterranean to the Russian steppe.
At the very least you will probably need to have Lithuania confer to orthodoxy and/or a union between Poland Lithuania and Moscow, which then picks up Transylvania and Greece before turning West and conquering Italy.
Maybe a Poland lithuania that conquers Moscow after it gets wrecked by the Turks, followed by Austria going protestant (along with Poland....), inheriting thr PLC and conquering Rome?
Moscow is the hard part, especially with rome in the bargain too. Theyre just so far away and not really linked by anything, and bluntly Moscow is not until the 17th or 18th century a great prize worth taking, theres very little reason why even a major blob like the Ottomans would bother expanding directly into Moscow (even crimea, Algeria and Transylvania were just client states and they were much closer). I mean Russia was more or less an isolated backwater vis a vis Europe until Peter the great, and he moved the capital to st Petersburg for a reason.
Any Russian centered empire is also going to have a harder time conquering their way to Italy than the reverse IMHO. Theres fewer states (though larger and generally poorer ones) going from the Mediterranean to the Russian steppe.
At the very least you will probably need to have Lithuania confer to orthodoxy and/or a union between Poland Lithuania and Moscow, which then picks up Transylvania and Greece before turning West and conquering Italy.
Maybe a Poland lithuania that conquers Moscow after it gets wrecked by the Turks, followed by Austria going protestant (along with Poland....), inheriting thr PLC and conquering Rome?
Moscow is the hard part, especially with rome in the bargain too. Theyre just so far away and not really linked by anything, and bluntly Moscow is not until the 17th or 18th century a great prize worth taking, theres very little reason why even a major blob like the Ottomans would bother expanding directly into Moscow (even crimea, Algeria and Transylvania were just client states and they were much closer). I mean Russia was more or less an isolated backwater vis a vis Europe until Peter the great, and he moved the capital to st Petersburg for a reason.
Yeah, no. In the 1500s it's a major city about as big as any in Europe, sitting in a pretty good agricultural region. By 1600 it's also the place where the wealth of Siberia and the Volga goes through (along with local production and Bukharan/Caspian trade).
The reason why they didn't expand towards Moscow was because they kept getting defeated (even after the Crimeans managed to burn Moscow during the Livonian war, Russia recovered quite well). They got crushed at Molodi, got crushed at Astrakhan, and were mostly forced to be on the defensive against the Cossacks. They were on the defensive for almost every war after that, and most of them went badly for them.
They retaliated mostly through stirring up holy wars in the Caucasus and propping up the Crimeans and their little slaver state.
It was involved in local politics (by which I mean all its European neighbours were in an on and off coalition to stop it by any means possible), joined grand alliances, sent embassies, negotiated trade treaties, colonized huge amounts of land and even sold arms abroad to allies. I mean, it was an early modern state, what more do you expect of it?