AHC: The Sun Never Sets on the Irish Empire

Starting with a POD no earlier than 410 AD, create a timeline where Ireland is a great power 1000 years later.

By great power, I mean something on par with OTL's Castille/Spain, France, Sweden/Kalmar Union, England, or the Ottoman Empire--a state that either already is (or is on the cusp of being) a major empire.

The only major condition is this: The ethnic identity has to be Irish, something like Ulster won't do. The nobility must be Irish-speaking. So no situations where an English dynasty has to flee to Ireland, takes over, and then Anglicizes the place. Nothing like that.

To my way of thinking (and probably everyone else's), this is a really hard thing to do, because Ireland is overshadowed by its loutish eastern neighbor. So just spitballing, I'm thinking Ireland has to unite soon after the fall of the Roman Empire in Britain, and somehow forge a lasting union with Dumnonia and the Welsh states. This doesn't seem totally outside the realm of plausibility, because Irish tribes actively raided and settled along the Welsh coast during this period. The trick seems to be getting them to hold the territory. A semi-united Cornwall, Wales, and Ireland would seem to be more than a match for any of the Romano British petty kingdoms, but I'm not an expert by any means.

What are your thoughts?
 
Ireland`s situation at the earliest possible PoD`s time is fairly similar to that of what would become Denmark, Sweden or Norway.
These places grew in importance during the Viking / Varangian age.

So my first idea would be to have some sort of Irish Vikings develop first, with superior shipbuilding skills, a penchant for trade and a reputation as fierce warriors at the same time. First victim would indeed be the bigger island to the West, where instead of a Danelaw, you`d have an Irishlaw. But an Irish Brittany or Normandy may be in the cards, too, and who knows what else.

The difficulty would indeed be to keep the beast together and to keep it from Latinising or Germanising.
 
Ireland`s situation at the earliest possible PoD`s time is fairly similar to that of what would become Denmark, Sweden or Norway.
These places grew in importance during the Viking / Varangian age.

So my first idea would be to have some sort of Irish Vikings develop first, with superior shipbuilding skills, a penchant for trade and a reputation as fierce warriors at the same time. First victim would indeed be the bigger island to the West, where instead of a Danelaw, you`d have an Irishlaw. But an Irish Brittany or Normandy may be in the cards, too, and who knows what else.

The difficulty would indeed be to keep the beast together and to keep it from Latinising or Germanising.
I agree with a lot of that; but the population and resource pressure that Scandinavia faced which caused the Viking phenomenon isnt apparent in Ireland. What is the cause that makes Irish say they need to raid because there is nothing back home for them.
 
I agree with a lot of that; but the population and resource pressure that Scandinavia faced which caused the Viking phenomenon isnt apparent in Ireland. What is the cause that makes Irish say they need to raid because there is nothing back home for them.

The Irish were actually notorious raiders during this period in OTL, and even colonizers. However, their activities were largely confined to Britain, and the southern shore of the English Channel (where the Roman glass industry was still chugging along and provided easy targets). To get Irish *Vikings (in am Amalingian TL I chose to call them Rautherings, which is a Germanization of the the Gaelic word for raider), you have to convince them to go a bit further afield. I suspect that the economic crushing of northern Gaul would do that. If they can start sailing and raiding down in Aquitaine, we're half way there already.

Now, the second issue is ships. The Irish ships were actually quite good for coast following and island hopping, but they were nowhere near the level of the Vikings, so even with some developments, I don't think we will be seeing Irish raiders heading down the smaller rivers to strike deep into the continent. But they could still wreck some havoc on coastal communities. Once they become more acquainted with the continent (well, more so than OTL, where you had Irish monastic orders springing up) I could even see bands being hired as mercenaries. Successful raiders and mercenaries would bring further wealth to Ireland and inspire overs to go off to do the same (and the increase in wealth would likely also lead to some modest population increase). This wealth would undermine the traditional kingships on the island to boot, so you might see new dynasties rising and trying to consolidate their hold on territory.

Why is this important? Because for the Irish, and the Vikings, groups that lost in battles would often be forced to migrate somewhere else. Even in OTL the Irish established communities in Pictland, Wales, Brittany and, according to some sources I've read, possibly as far afield as northern Hispania. If you have a greater migration due to increased population, and groups being forced to flee, you might see many more move to Brittany and *Normandy. The Saxon shore in this TL might become known as the Gaelic Shore.
 
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The only later TL I can envision is n response to the Brucian invasion, via Scotland, but it takes some work and a latter Gaelic Vercingetorix.
 
The Irish were actually notorious raiders during this period in OTL, and even colonizers. However, their activities were largely confined to Britain, and the southern shore of the English Channel (where the Roman glass industry was still chugging along and provided easy targets). To get Irish *Vikings (in am Amalingian TL I chose to call them Rautherings, which is a Germanization of the the Gaelic word for raider), you have to convince them to go a bit further afield. I suspect that the economic crushing of northern Gaul would do that. If they can start sailing and raiding down in Aquitaine, we're half way there already.

Now, the second issue is ships. The Irish ships were actually quite good for coast following and island hopping, but they were nowhere near the level of the Vikings, so even with some developments, I don't think we will be seeing Irish raiders heading down the smaller rivers to strike deep into the continent. But they could still wreck some havoc on coastal communities. Once they become more acquainted with the continent (well, more so than OTL, where you had Irish monastic orders springing up) I could even see bands being hired as mercenaries. Successful raiders and mercenaries would bring further wealth to Ireland and inspire overs to go off to do the same (and the increase in wealth would likely also lead to some modest population increase). This wealth would undermine the traditional kingships on the island to boot, so you might see new dynasties rising and trying to consolidate their hold on territory.

Why is this important? Because for the Irish, and the Vikings, groups that lost in battles would often be forced to migrate somewhere else. Even in OTL the Irish established communities in Pictland, Wales, Brittany and, according to some sources I've read, possibly as far afield as northern Hispania. If you have a greater migration due to increased population, and groups being forced to flee, you might see many more move to Brittany and *Normandy. The Saxon shore in this TL might become known as the Gaelic Shore.

I really loved the way you riffed on the idea. During what time period do you see this taking place? Right after the Roman evacuation? You mentioned an "economic crushing of northern Gaul." What's a POD for that?
 
The only later TL I can envision is n response to the Brucian invasion, via Scotland, but it takes some work and a latter Gaelic Vercingetorix.

That's interesting--and really late. So how do we get from expelling the English and the Scots in the 1300s to on the cusp of empire a hundred years later?
 
I really loved the way you riffed on the idea. During what time period do you see this taking place? Right after the Roman evacuation? You mentioned an "economic crushing of northern Gaul." What's a POD for that?

In my timeline, it starts developing in the 6th century (there Northern Gaul gets the worst of a blood feud between the Goths and the Franks that is literally epic in proportions). Now, that doesn't mean that that is the only, or even the best, time. Perhaps Attila's campaigns in Gaul go better and he ravages the region? Also, perhaps the Franks come under the leadership of a different ruler than Clovis who is rougher on the native populations of the region, faces a popular uprising, and harries the region as a result?
 
That's interesting--and really late. So how do we get from expelling the English and the Scots in the 1300s to on the cusp of empire a hundred years later?

Well, think of the Brucian momentum itself; a response to an immediate external threat synthesizes regional strife into a (~) unified force behind a charismatic leader, expelling the interloper and eventually turning into external ambitions. Can't see why what was true for Scotland at the time couldn't have been true for Ireland, especially with more secure borders. OTL history lacks that charismatic leader, and so the Brucian invasion sputters out and dies of hunger, but add a Bruce/Wallace/Vercingetorix/Arminius to the mix and you get dynamite.
 
Well, think of the Brucian momentum itself; a response to an immediate external threat synthesizes regional strife into a (~) unified force behind a charismatic leader, expelling the interloper and eventually turning into external ambitions. Can't see why what was true for Scotland at the time couldn't have been true for Ireland, especially with more secure borders. OTL history lacks that charismatic leader, and so the Brucian invasion sputters out and dies of hunger, but add a Bruce/Wallace/Vercingetorix/Arminius to the mix and you get dynamite.

That part I get, and I like it, FWIW. Where I'm having trouble making the leap is going from "independent by the skin of their teeth" to Empire of Eire.
 
That part I get, and I like it, FWIW. Where I'm having trouble making the leap is going from "independent by the skin of their teeth" to Empire of Eire.

How about instead of the Brucian invasions the initial Anglo-Norman invasion about a century earlier?

Or what if one of the Scando-Irish rulers gets a big head and decides to unify the island and become High King?
 
That part I get, and I like it, FWIW. Where I'm having trouble making the leap is going from "independent by the skin of their teeth" to Empire of Eire.
I think part of the reason why you may be having trouble making that leap is because of the knowledge that there were multiple kingdoms in Ireland and that endemic warfare was already well established there. I like the concept of having a successful Brucian invasion though but, in my opinion, Edward Bruce was not the right man for the job OTL.

Another thought that I have about a possible POD would be involving Brian Boru. In 1011, all the regional rulers of Ireland acknowledged his authority but that changed soon after. If, somehow, that acknowledgement were to continue then you may have a different outcome for Ireland.
 
How about instead of the Brucian invasions the initial Anglo-Norman invasion about a century earlier?

Or what if one of the Scando-Irish rulers gets a big head and decides to unify the island and become High King?

Ivar the Boneless was one of the major rulers of norther England and has also been identified with Imar, a Viking ruler of (I think) Dublin. What if, following his conquest of Northumbria, he focused more of his attention on western Ireland? Over time, his heirs unite Ireland and Dublin becomes their preferred capital. They also expand their control outwards into *Scotland so that the Kingdom of Dublin comes to rule the northern and western British Isles and the ruling class is of a Gaelic-Nordic culture.
 
Ivar the Boneless was one of the major rulers of norther England and has also been identified with Imar, a Viking ruler of (I think) Dublin. What if, following his conquest of Northumbria, he focused more of his attention on western Ireland? Over time, his heirs unite Ireland and Dublin becomes their preferred capital. They also expand their control outwards into *Scotland so that the Kingdom of Dublin comes to rule the northern and western British Isles and the ruling class is of a Gaelic-Nordic culture.

Perfect.
 
Ivar the Boneless was one of the major rulers of norther England and has also been identified with Imar, a Viking ruler of (I think) Dublin. What if, following his conquest of Northumbria, he focused more of his attention on western Ireland? Over time, his heirs unite Ireland and Dublin becomes their preferred capital. They also expand their control outwards into *Scotland so that the Kingdom of Dublin comes to rule the northern and western British Isles and the ruling class is of a Gaelic-Nordic culture.

Ivar the Boneless? Lol. HTF does a cat get a name like that?

But in any event, that does work as a POD. What do we think about Viking Paganism wrt Christian Ireland? Do some Irish chieftains convert because the Vikings are so fearsome, or do the Vikings make the judgement that Tara is worth a mass?
 
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I think part of the reason why you may be having trouble making that leap is because of the knowledge that there were multiple kingdoms in Ireland and that endemic warfare was already well established there. I like the concept of having a successful Brucian invasion though but, in my opinion, Edward Bruce was not the right man for the job OTL.

I think he's saying that a Boudica type of person shows up as a reaction to Mr. Bruce's excursion, not that Mr. Bruce goes to Dublin.
 
Ivar the Boneless? Lol. HTF does a cat get a name like that?

But in any event, that does work as a POD. What do we think about Viking Paganism wrt Christian Ireland? Do some Irish chieftains convert because the Vikings are so fearsome, or do the Vikings make the judgement that Tara is worth a mass?

Actually, no one really knows how Ivar got his name. The Sagas say that when Ivar's parents were married, his Mother told his Father that they would have to wait three days to consummate the marriage or their child would be born disfigured. Ragnar Lothbroke, a good Viking and drunk on his wedding night, forced himself upon her anyway and, nine months later, Ivar was born. They say he had no bones and, in their place, was only gristle. The stories further say that he would be carried into battle by his men, held aloft on a shield and that he would fight by firing a bow.

There are some people who think he may have been born with some disease, such as "brittle bone disease", others who think the nickname was meant to be ironic, that he was impotent, or that he was lame and lacked the use of his legs. A pretty fascinating, albeit, vague figure. If he was disfigured, it certainly didn't stop him from a successful career as a warrior and ruler, since he and his brothers commanded the Great Heathen Army, and he was known as the dominant one.

As for Christian-Viking relations if this scenario; that's a good question. In OTL the Norse didn't have too great of trouble integrating themselves into the Gaelic clan structure while holding on to their religion. I would expect, especially since Northumbria was a Christian center along with Ireland, that there would be increased pressure on the upper class to convert to Christianity after a few generations. In the mean time, the Vikings didn't seem to persecute Christians who fell under their rule. Perhaps someone here knows more about 9th century Ireland and can answer this question?
 
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