AHC: The Mexican Barbarossa

MerryPrankster

This will probably require a pre-1900 POD, but since the primary events are in the 20th Century, I'm posting it here:

Challenge: Rework history so that on June 22, 1941, the armies of various Latin American countries crossed the Rio Grande on an imperialistic and genocidal campaign against the United States. They make strong initial gains with the assistance of oppressed Asians on the West Coast and blacks in the South, with the turning point in the war being the failed conquest of Chicago and something analogous to Kursk happening in the Great Plains.

The war ends in the spring of 1945 with U.S. troops occupying all the way down to Panama.

The United States then attempts to forcibly Americanize all the occupied areas, and by Americanize, I mean WASP-ify.

(This whole thing is an analogue of WWII and the early Cold War, with the Mexican War and possibly the Banana Wars if they're not butterflied away being U.S. analogues to Soviet shenanigans during Weimar, Molotov-Ribbentropp and oppressed Asians and blacks being analogues to the Ukrainians and Cossacks.)
 

herricks

MerryPrankster said:
This will probably require a pre-1900 POD, but since the primary events are in the 20th Century, I'm posting it here:

Challenge: Rework history so that on June 22, 1941, the armies of various Latin American countries crossed the Rio Grande on an imperialistic and genocidal campaign against the United States. They make strong initial gains with the assistance of oppressed Asians on the West Coast and blacks in the South, with the turning point in the war being the failed conquest of Chicago and something analogous to Kursk happening in the Great Plains.

The war ends in the spring of 1945 with U.S. troops occupying all the way down to Panama.

The United States then attempts to forcibly Americanize all the occupied areas, and by Americanize, I mean WASP-ify.

(This whole thing is an analogue of WWII and the early Cold War, with the Mexican War and possibly the Banana Wars if they're not butterflied away being U.S. analogues to Soviet shenanigans during Weimar, Molotov-Ribbentropp and oppressed Asians and blacks being analogues to the Ukrainians and Cossacks.)
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CHICAGO no way if it was going to have a Stalingrad type battle the most id put would be DFW or Denver
 

MerryPrankster

herricks said:
CHICAGO no way if it was going to have a Stalingrad type battle the most id put would be DFW or Denver
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I wanted a city that was as important to the United States as Stalingrad was to the Soviets as well as representing a point ludicrously far inland.

How industrialized/populated was Denver in, say, 1943?
 

Enigmajones

Well I remember writing a TL where Napoleon is rescued from Saint Helens by French soldiers who want to recreate his Empire in Texas. He ends up Emperor of Mexico and gives his brothers California and Tejas as independent kingdoms. Tejas is still inundated by American settlers, America annexes Tejas and Mexico doesn't go to war. In the 1940's they launch an Operation Barbarossa. It fails but it still happens.
 

MerryPrankster

Enigmajones said:
Well I remember writing a TL where Napoleon is rescued from Saint Helens by French soldiers who want to recreate his Empire in Texas. He ends up Emperor of Mexico and gives his brothers California and Tejas as independent kingdoms. Tejas is still inundated by American settlers, America annexes Tejas and Mexico doesn't go to war. In the 1940's they launch an Operation Barbarossa. It fails but it still happens.
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That could be interesting. Do you have a link?
 

herricks

MerryPrankster said:
I wanted a city that was as important to the United States as Stalingrad was to the Soviets as well as representing a point ludicrously far inland.

How industrialized/populated was Denver in, say, 1943?
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but chicagos damn near to Canada. Dallas is bout 600 or so miles from Mexico & denversprobably twice that far.

on industriallized idk but it had about 350,000 population in 1943
 

Scipio Africanus

Well this is an interesting idea, I think that we would need a POD very far back to have it be realistic. The best thing I can think of is a different 19th century where Mexico is able to keep control of Central America and lose less land to the U.S (California most of all, such quality land would be a boon to anyone who controls it) and is then able to industrialize somewhat. The invasion could be the result of posturing between the two powers (the U.S and Mexico) for control of the Americas, or at least North America. This way you could also have a WWI analogue where Mexico lost badly to the U.S but is not totally defeated. The only problem is a Stalingrad equivalent. Central North America is simply not a good spot for a major city, so perhaps *Chicago would be a good candidate. The thing is that Chicago is so far inside any US, even one that does nor expand west (although that is quite hard to imagine with any post 1783 POD).
Scipio
 

MerryPrankster

Scipio Africanus said:
Well this is an interesting idea, I think that we would need a POD very far back to have it be realistic. The best thing I can think of is a different 19th century where Mexico is able to keep control of Central America and lose less land to the U.S (California most of all, such quality land would be a boon to anyone who controls it) and is then able to industrialize somewhat. The invasion could be the result of posturing between the two powers (the U.S and Mexico) for control of the Americas, or at least North America. This way you could also have a WWI analogue where Mexico lost badly to the U.S but is not totally defeated. The only problem is a Stalingrad equivalent. Central North America is simply not a good spot for a major city, so perhaps *Chicago would be a good candidate. The thing is that Chicago is so far inside any US, even one that does nor expand west (although that is quite hard to imagine with any post 1783 POD).
Scipio
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Perhaps in the aftermath of the Mexican War, the Mexicans expand southward to compensate and to build up their power to avoid a repeat of the hiding they got in the last war?

If they build a Panama Canal at the same time or earlier than OTL, that'd give them a major source of income.
 

M79

New Orleans would be a better analogue to Stalingrad and was one of the Mexican war aims in 1846 anyway. The US will have to hold the bridges and riverways at all costs while the army pivots closer to Vicksburg for a Uranus-style counterattack. Move the Kursk site to San Antonio or Dallas with Leningrad becoming OTL Los Angeles. Texas becomes akin to the Ukraine while the oil fields there are cut off only to be replaced by production from Alaska and Pennsylvania. At the worst of the invasion I see a line running roughly from Monterrey to Las Vegas to the Grand Canyon to the Colorado-NM line following the northern edge of Oklahoma with Coffeeville being Mexican. Then follow into southwestern Missouri before dipping back down to Little Rock and just south of Vicksburg MS then follow the Mississippi to the sea.
 

MerryPrankster

M79 said:
New Orleans would be a better analogue to Stalingrad and was one of the Mexican war aims in 1846 anyway. The US will have to hold the bridges and riverways at all costs while the army pivots closer to Vicksburg for a Uranus-style counterattack. Move the Kursk site to San Antonio or Dallas with Leningrad becoming OTL Los Angeles. Texas becomes akin to the Ukraine while the oil fields there are cut off only to be replaced by production from Alaska and Pennsylvania. At the worst of the invasion I see a line running roughly from Monterrey to Las Vegas to the Grand Canyon to the Colorado-NM line following the northern edge of Oklahoma with Coffeeville being Mexican. Then follow into southwestern Missouri before dipping back down to Little Rock and just south of Vicksburg MS then follow the Mississippi to the sea.
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Rarely does one hear about Mexican war aims in the Mexican War. Can you provide more information?

Hmm...if Los Angeles is Leningrad, what is San Diego? I'm pretty certain that would fall fairly quickly, given how Tijuana is on the other side of a fence.
 

MerryPrankster

Now, about these genocidal Mexicans (and Salvadorans and Costa Ricans and others)--what kind of ideology would they have?

The Aztlan cultists identify with the Indians even though they have Spanish ancestry and are Catholic. Could some militant La Raza enthusiasts view this as an attempt to undo 1492, never mind they're pretty European themselves culturally?

We could have Aztec neo-pagans, complete with human sacrifices, standing in for the anti-Christian elements of the Nazi party.

The problem is getting them in control of a Latin American coalition, let alone one capable of invading the United States and making significant progress.
 

The Ubbergeek

MerryPrankster said:
Now, about these genocidal Mexicans (and Salvadorans and Costa Ricans and others)--what kind of ideology would they have?

The Aztlan cultists identify with the Indians even though they have Spanish ancestry and are Catholic. Could some militant La Raza enthusiasts view this as an attempt to undo 1492, never mind they're pretty European themselves culturally?

We could have Aztec neo-pagans, complete with human sacrifices, standing in for the anti-Christian elements of the Nazi party.

The problem is getting them in control of a Latin American coalition, let alone one capable of invading the United States and making significant progress.
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Good lord, sounds like Aztlan of Shadowrun, one century and half before...
 

MerryPrankster

The Ubbergeek said:
Good lord, sounds like Aztlan of Shadowrun, one century and half before...
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I suspect those people are loosely based on MECHA, a group of real-life weirdos from out West who call themselves "America's Palestinians" and hate white people and the Jews.

http://www.aztlan.net/

Given how militantly Catholic these people are, the "mainstream" of the movement could turn on the anti-Christian human-sacrifice fringe just like the Nazi mainstream eventually got sick of the occultists.

Thing is, in OTL they're pretty weak. Even the Black Panthers seem more powerful than they are.
 

The Ubbergeek

MerryPrankster said:
I suspect those people are loosely based on MECHA, a group of real-life weirdos from out West who call themselves "America's Palestinians" and hate white people and the Jews.

http://www.aztlan.net/

Given how militantly Catholic these people are, the "mainstream" of the movement could turn on the anti-Christian human-sacrifice fringe just like the Nazi mainstream eventually got sick of the occultists.

Thing is, in OTL they're pretty weak. Even the Black Panthers seem more powerful than they are.
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In Shadowrun, it is a bit how it went; the Aztlan gov. turned the Roman Catholics as ennemies, severe oppression if I remember well, and they resist in and out...

And ironicaly, sadly, Aztlaners oppresses 'indios' as well, Mayans and other groups... the situation was NASTY when Yucatan region went into a long revolt that just ended recently... and both sides lost, in way (Gaia was PISSED OFF..).
 
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