AHC: the ideal fighter(s) for 1940

Deleted member 1487

5o cals on a Spitfire, pointless! just go strait to 20mm cannon as OTL but just do it earlier as was quite possible.
Lighter, reliable, more effective at killing bombers and fighters. The HS404 was not reliable in time in 1940, while the lighter .50 cal was. Could start the year with some 13mm punch.
 
Lighter, reliable, more effective at killing bombers and fighters. The HS404 was not reliable in time in 1940, while the lighter .50 cal was. Could start the year with some 13mm punch.
Much more likely in a 1938 or 1939 start. In early 1940 people knew the 20mm was coming and there was no point reengineering the wings to carry a different armament which would be a temporary thing.
 
Would there be an annular cowling for an inline engine in 1940? At least in production form.

On the Ju-88 as we know it.

Any chance of mating .50 cals to a Spitfire?

It was done in OTL in 1944. Also it was suggested in the late 1930s for the then-new Spitfire, the Vickers .50. Advantage over the 20mm available is that it was belt-fed, plus greater RoF, advantage over .303 is that it will have much better chances of defeating both stressed skin of the target A/C and protection installed, thus hitting the pilot or/and fuel. Disadvantage vs. 20mm is lower destructive power, even when comparison is between 2 cannons vs. 4 HMGs. Vs. eight .303s disadvantage is lower RoF.
So I'd say - go for it, especially if the Belgian .50s are available, those went to 1000-1200 rpm before ww2.
 

Deleted member 1487

Much more likely in a 1938 or 1939 start. In early 1940 people knew the 20mm was coming and there was no point reengineering the wings to carry a different armament which would be a temporary thing.
As Tomo said, they introduced a .50 cal Spitfire armament in 1944 anyway, so there was an advantage to it. Compared to the targets they'd face in 1940 and beyond, the 50 cal really was a near ideal balance between .303 and 20mm. Besides 6x .50s worked really well on the Mustang.
 
It was primarily Treasury and AM incompetence and foot dragging that prevented the HS404 being in series production and properly sorted by the summer of 1940. APMEP, Sorting Castle Bromwich out six months to a year earlier (perfectly possible) and doing the same for the HS404 could give Fighter Command canon equipped Spitfire MKIII's by the summer of 1940. The only real downside is that the Hurricane would be starved of the Merlin XX but again if you are pumping out Spitfire MKIII's the less capable Hurricane can be assigned to groups outside of the range of ME109's.
 

Deleted member 1487

It was primarily Treasury and AM incompetence and foot dragging that prevented the HS404 being in series production and properly sorted by the summer of 1940. APMEP, Sorting Castle Bromwich out six months to a year earlier (perfectly possible) and doing the same for the HS404 could give Fighter Command canon equipped Spitfire MKIII's by the summer of 1940. The only real downside is that the Hurricane would be starved of the Merlin XX but again if you are pumping out Spitfire MKIII's the less capable Hurricane can be assigned to groups outside of the range of ME109's.
A few highly effective Spitfires is a worse option than many more less capable, but still competitive Hurricanes and Spits. For one thing being outnumbered by Me109s that could swamp the dangerous Spits would negative their advantages, while Bf110s could massacre the slow Hurricanes.
 
If, castle Bromwich is producing the promised 60 Spitfires a week by April 1940 (and these are Cannon armed MkIII's by the way) then that probably enables 11 group to be all Spitfires and the Ratio of 2/3rds Hurricanes to spitfires though out fighter command to be nearer 50/50. Unless Fighter Command can find more pilots then the total strength does not alter just the ratio of aircraft types.
 
A coat of paint wouldn't hurt, of course ;)

trhyt7676i.jpg


A coat of paint would be nice, but cut and paste is so much easier, if plagiaristic.
 

Deleted member 1487

If, castle Bromwich is producing the promised 60 Spitfires a week by April 1940 (and these are Cannon armed MkIII's by the way) then that probably enables 11 group to be all Spitfires and the Ratio of 2/3rds Hurricanes to spitfires though out fighter command to be nearer 50/50. Unless Fighter Command can find more pilots then the total strength does not alter just the ratio of aircraft types.
11 Group had something like 600 fighters and 58% of fighter strength:
https://ww2db.com/doc.php?q=309
No way in hell they'd have that many ready by July-August. Hurricanes would be near useless without the engine upgrade and you're forgetting the Blenheims and Defiants that were part of FC strength.
 
For Britain in 1940, without bringing post 1940 items forwards and to get numbers, churn out Hurricanes with 4 x 13.2mm Belgian Brownings, get rid of whatshisname who did the awful first Merlin head designs before it was first made and get Stanley Hooker in early so one can get a Merlin XX clone in as the first proper production type. Constant speed propellors and wing hard points. Get more proper pilot training so that these mass Hurricanes are used to best effect and without pilot shortages.

All achievable with no technical time travelling and pure pre 1940 technology.

In the wings is the Westland Whirlwind to carry on leaving the Hurricanes to shift to tactical air support (with a better dust filter). I will spare you the Whirlwind fan club sales pitch.

All there in numbers and able to do the job. You are building an air force to maintain air superiority over the whole UK in 1940 and not to make the best fighter technology can devise. The best is the enemy of the good (but the best is way AH cooler than the good).

Whilst I am at it I will throw in the Armstrong Whitworth Whitley as the best 1940 RAF night bomber.

Steps back and waits.....................
 
For Britain I'd like to nominate alongside the usual suspects a hypothetical but perfectly possible Westland Whirlwind designed from the start around twin Merlins and larger fuel tanks. It would of course be somewhat larger than the actual aircraft and would fill the niche of a better armed but shorter ranged Lightning. Whirlwind had short legs like all British fighters of the period.
 
For Britain I'd like to nominate alongside the usual suspects a hypothetical but perfectly possible Westland Whirlwind designed from the start around twin Merlins and larger fuel tanks. It would of course be somewhat larger than the actual aircraft and would fill the niche of a better armed but shorter ranged Lightning. Whirlwind had short legs like all British fighters of the period.
One of the main problems is the cost, the Merlin engine was not exactly in the greatest supply in 1940 and looking for two of them in a fighter would not be popular.

That said it's a good idea in a timeline where there is less pressure on Britain or the Merlin has heavier production earlier.
 
For Britain I'd like to nominate alongside the usual suspects a hypothetical but perfectly possible Westland Whirlwind designed from the start around twin Merlins and larger fuel tanks. It would of course be somewhat larger than the actual aircraft and would fill the niche of a better armed but shorter ranged Lightning. Whirlwind had short legs like all British fighters of the period.

Merlin Whirlwind makes so painfuly sense. Choosing 'right' engines also allowes for later growth of performance and overall capability.

One of the main problems is the cost, the Merlin engine was not exactly in the greatest supply in 1940 and looking for two of them in a fighter would not be popular.

That said it's a good idea in a timeline where there is less pressure on Britain or the Merlin has heavier production earlier.

Britain in 1940 produced more Merlins than Germany produced DB 601s and Jumo 211 combined. It was also the most produced British engine from 1939-44.
2000+ went to the Battles, 1000+ to Defiants, mostly in 1940. With no Peregrine to design and produce there is another several hunderds of Merlins, again in 1940, to use.
We can also recall that neither Miles M.20 nor the 1-seat Defiant were accepted by the AM/RAF since they were not needed (and both were much slower than Spitfire with same engine) - pilots were in much shorter supply in that year than fighter aircraft.
 
Merlin XX engined Hurricanes did not enter service until September 1940. on the 15 of September No 11 Group had 27 squadrons, 7 Spitfire, 14 Hurricane, 2 Defiant, 2 Blenheim and 2 with a mixture of Beufighters and Blenheims. Some Benheim, Defiant and Hurricane units were only part squadrons hence the discrepancy in numbers.
So if since April Castle Bromwich has been chucking out 60 cannon armed Spitfires a Month that means at a strength of 18 aircraft to a squadron by the end of May 11 group can swap 10 squadrons of other types for Spitfires. Leave the Beufighter/Blenheim squadrons as is as they are Night fighters this then means that you can get rid of both defiant Squadrons and 8 Hurricane Squadrons more than reversing the OTL ratio of Spitfires to Hurricanes. The existing Machine gun armed Spitfire squadrons remain as OTL. The effectiveness of 11 group in the BoB has just been greatly improved even if only 5 of the cannon armed spitfire Squadrons are used against the Bombers.
 
Whilst I am at it I will throw in the Armstrong Whitworth Whitley as the best 1940 RAF night bomber.
Steps back and waits.....................

The Whitley was the only exclusive night bomber, having been deemed unfit for daytime use. Had it been used in daylight, it might have been as effective as the Monty Python WWII joke sketch. The Germans die laughing.
The Germans counter with:

My dog has no nose!

How does it smell?

Terrible!

It was ineffective.
 
The Whitley was the only exclusive night bomber, having been deemed unfit for daytime use. Had it been used in daylight, it might have been as effective as the Monty Python WWII joke sketch. The Germans die laughing.
The Germans counter with:

My dog has no nose!

How does it smell?

Terrible!

It was ineffective.

RAF Coastal Command could have put it to good use. Bad smell or not. :)
 
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