AHC: The Byzantine Empire permenantly retakes Anatolia

So I've recently fallen in love with the early Crusader era (1099-1187) and have bought at least 4 different books on the subject. They have got me interested in the Crusader states' neighbor, the Byzantine Empire. One of the main reasons for the first crusade was to aid the Byzantines and pushing back the Turks, who had taken much of Anatolia. Now both Muslims and Byzantines ended up fighting over the region off and on for about 2 centuries, but the Empire never fully reestablished its control over this vital territory.

So my challenge is this: with a POD after the end of the first Crusade (1099 for those who don't know) have Byzantium permanently retake control of most or all of Anatolia. Sure they could lose some territory in the back and forth nature of the era but the Byzantines have to be in control of the vast majority of the region. Bonus points if this leads to a surviving Latin East and extra bonus points if the Latins and Greeks can manage to work together, as Pope Urban II originally envisioned.
 

Deleted member 67076

John II Komnenos lives a few more years longer while the Abbasids are more successful in their revolt(s) in Iraq, leading to Seljuq Authority to rapidly decline. Many local emirs decide to carve out their own states rather than continue following the sultan in Konya, leading to revolts and infighting amongst the Muslim powers, weakening them while the Abbasids in Mesopotamia launch campaigns against the Seljuqs, possibly with raids into Anatolia.

Meanwhile, John II's style of slow, steady campaigning combined with external and internal pressure in Rum leads to Konya falling. With Konya taken, Rum implodes. As well, the reconquest of Konya allows for a greater hold in the Tarsus region, Central Anatolia and the eastern trade routes, which enrich the Byzantine state and make further operations east easier as time goes on. As the Imperials expand east, they now have the advantage of fighting a myriad of small, divided statelets probably more interested in fighting each other instead of a unified opposition interested defending against the Rhomaioi.

Later Manuel finishes off the conquest, which is significantly easier than OTL, using a policy of Divide and Conquer. Anatolia is probably retaken by the 1150s-60s.
 
Do we have to wait until after the first crusade is done? There was a decent chance that the crusaders could have handed over Antioch to the Byzantines, though that didn't go according to plan (or the plan went perfectly if your name is Bohemond).
 

Dirk_Pitt

Banned
Do we have to wait until after the first crusade is done? There was a decent chance that the crusaders could have handed over Antioch to the Byzantines, though that didn't go according to plan (or the plan went perfectly if your name is Bohemond).

Had the Rhomaions Accompanied the crusaders this would have happened.
 
Honestly, any number of PoD's in the 12th century could work. Manuel getting luckier, John living longer, Isaac or Alexios being picked instead of Manuel... as long as the Romans have a strong emperor, they have an advantage over the Turks and will press it.

In fact, a recovery of Anatolia is really possible all the way up to the Fourth Crusade. If Rome doesn't get plunged into chaos like that disaster, it can and will recover.
 
Actually, can a 12th Century PoD actually lead to a permanent Byzantine reconquest of Anatolia? I'm thinking that 1150s-1160s is only around 70-80 years away from the Mongol invasions of the Middle East, and it doesn't seem nearly long enough for the Byzantines to replace the entrenched Turkish culture with a Greek one.

Even without the Fourth Crusade, it would seem that Byzantine rule would be ended when the Mongolians invade Anatolia anyway, and under crumbling Mongolian rule it seems likely that the Turks (being the native population) will, once again, regain control of the region.
 
Actually, can a 12th Century PoD actually lead to a permanent Byzantine reconquest of Anatolia? I'm thinking that 1150s-1160s is only around 70-80 years away from the Mongol invasions of the Middle East, and it doesn't seem nearly long enough for the Byzantines to replace the entrenched Turkish culture with a Greek one.

Even without the Fourth Crusade, it would seem that Byzantine rule would be ended when the Mongolians invade Anatolia anyway, and under crumbling Mongolian rule it seems likely that the Turks (being the native population) will, once again, regain control of the region.

You're taking it as a given that the Mongols would invade Anatolia. I find it much more likely that some practical Rhomanians instead give tribute to the Great Khan after seeing what he's done to the Near East. Maybe that's just wishful thinking.

If Anatolia is invaded and lost, Greek culture will still survive. Turkish culture is only dominant in the interior of the peninsula, with the western and coastal parts all greek. The Romans can always come back from Europe, just like they did under the Macedonians and Komnenoi.
 
Actually, can a 12th Century PoD actually lead to a permanent Byzantine reconquest of Anatolia? I'm thinking that 1150s-1160s is only around 70-80 years away from the Mongol invasions of the Middle East, and it doesn't seem nearly long enough for the Byzantines to replace the entrenched Turkish culture with a Greek one.

Even without the Fourth Crusade, it would seem that Byzantine rule would be ended when the Mongolians invade Anatolia anyway, and under crumbling Mongolian rule it seems likely that the Turks (being the native population) will, once again, regain control of the region.

Well presumably if this is an alternate history challenge, you could just find a way to keep the Mongols from doing so. And as Biden&Caesar pointed out, it's not a given they will invade ANatolia, especially if there is a strong and stable entity there.
 
Here's a short TL on the subject:

-Alexios Komnenos, John II's first son and co-emperor of the Romans, does not suffer a fatal illness in 1142. He will stay John's heir.

-John II successfully takes Antioch from the crusader states, having avoided death himself in Cilicia. He completes a pilgrimage to Jerusalem in 1143, and returns victorious to Constantinople.

-John dies in 1145, and is succeeded smoothly* by his son Alexios. He continues John's policy of reform and expansion.

- In 1152, after years of planning, Alexios launches a campaign to retake more of Anatolia. He captures many cities, most importantly Iconium, and places them once again under Imperial Authority. The sultunate of Rum is broken up into many Turkomen vassals of Rome.

-Most importantly, Alexios manages to create a much shorter and more sustainable border in Anatolia, meaning less forts and men are needed to prevent raids crossing over into Imperial land.

-Over the many years of his reign, Alexios keeps the Byzantine army and navy in excellent shape, and Rome remains the superpower of the Eastern Med. He also campaigns successfully in Syria, turning the crusader states into Imperial vassals, including Jerusalem.

-Muslims are continuously repelled from the Holy Land by the alliance of the Crusader States and the Romans. Relations improve over time, and by the 13th century, most of the crusader states are integrated into the Roman Empire, although the Latins still maintain control, just under authority from Constantinople.

-Alexios dies and is succeeded by his own son, say, John III (Or maybe a usurper. It doesn't really matter). He doesn't need to be an amazing emperor to bring the full might of the Romans down on the Turks, and finishes the process of reconquering Anatolia.

-Assuming the Mongols show up in 1220 as per OTL, they will meet a powerful state that dominates the Near East, Anatolia and Eastern Europe. The Romans present "gifts" to the Khan, and he conquers around Rome, possibly even with Roman help. Constantinople views the Mongols as demons sent down to punish the muslims, at least at first. When they attack Kievan Rus, Rome will get more worried, which will only make them send more "gifts".

-Rome is now a massive power that has avoided the horrors of Mongol invasion. They are able to make a gigantic amount of money off of trade between Europe and Asia, as well as all the taxes from their vast domains. Anatolia and parts of Syria are Hellenized and once again integral parts of the ERE.

*as smooth as can be expected. Isaac and Manuel could pose problems, but it will be obvious who is John's heir.

How's that? Sure, it's a total Byzi-wank, but if fulfills all your criteria- Roman recovery of Anatolia, Latin-Byzantine cooperation (vassals and lieges can get along, right? ;)) and a lasting latin influence in the near east (although the greeks would probably have more of an influence).
 
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Actually, can a 12th Century PoD actually lead to a permanent Byzantine reconquest of Anatolia? I'm thinking that 1150s-1160s is only around 70-80 years away from the Mongol invasions of the Middle East, and it doesn't seem nearly long enough for the Byzantines to replace the entrenched Turkish culture with a Greek one.

The Battle of Manzikert was only in 1071. There is not much "entrenched" Turkish culture by the 1150s and 1160s. If the Turks could entrench their culture so much within 80-90 years, then the Greeks could certainly do the same and probably have an easier time doing it.

You have either residual Greek population there, descendants of the families who fled the invaders who would repopulate the area, and Turkified Greeks re-Hellenizing. Plus there are large number of Armenians in the east, and this is the height of Georgian power and influence.

The biggest obstacle is military defeat of the Turks; not cultural barriers to a return to Hellenistic culture and language.
 
I think the best chance, considering we are saying they lost it, is if Constantinople unleashed an all out attack on the Sultanate of Rum between the Crusades. To me this is the last real chance for Byzantium to re-establish itself. As it was teh Othodox/Catholic rivalry was simply too much for a real Alliance with the Crusader States.

But this was not pre-destined.
 
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