AHC: the best possible Luftwaffe for 1940

Deleted member 1487

First I would like to remind you of my post #46. Of the 25 built He 100 D-1s 6 were buiilt without any surface cooling, "only" with a partially retractable "full-size" cooler on its belly at the same position as on the P-51 Mustang.
These were finished in september 1939.
The speed of these are recorded in several sources for all versions of armament, armor and other equipment between 628 km/h and 675 km/h. ... in september 1939.

Even the first number has still quite some margin to everything else in the air at that time.
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_100#Закупка_СССР
Doesn't mean Nowarra was correct about that, especially in a general overview book about all aircraft, not just a specific book on the He100. I have the book too and it doesn't list any sources, nor gives performance information or say when they were built. In effect they were still in prototype for at that point, whether that was in 1940 or not. Based on the Soviet sources when they were at Heinkel's in December 1939 10 were still being built in the workshop, which would more likely than not include the V20-25 models that Nowarra claims was without the evaporative cooling system. So these prototypes were still not even complete likely as of the very end of 1939 and not ready for mass production, again per Soviet sources on the models they bought and examined at Heinkel. That's simply too late to matter in mid-1940 and indeed for most of 1940 even if the prototypes were perfect.

So your super fighter is still a work in progress even as late as December 1939, not a production ready aircraft with the numbers you're quoting those are for the evaporative cooling models.
 
If only the Luftwaffe had put resource into making decent ones before 1940. That said there is still the need for a heavy bomber destroyer, as relying on a single engine fighter for that is risky. The Bf109Z would solve that problem, as it uses mostly existing parts, has over 1000km range and could carry heavier weapons in the inboard wing spar to reliably blast apart bombers.

No risk. Bf 109E-3 was the only fighter in the world that combined bomber-busting firepower with speed and rate of climb in 1939. RAF was taking a bigger risk with 8 LMGs for bomber busting.
Biger drums (75, 90 rds) were on offering well before ww2 started by Oerlikon, the Breda 12.7mm is belt fed, drop tanks were in use all around the world, including Luftwaffe (on He 51 and Hs 123), by the time of Spanish civil war. The dots are there, just connect them in a timely manner.

Not really, as models without the evaporative cooling system of the Fw187 actually flew. We don't know that any non-evaporative cooling He100s were ever made or what their performance actually was. The DB Fw187 can be estimated from data from the Jumo 210 187, but I'll find out what there is in the one book on the Fw187 that is out about the performance of the later iterations that had the DB605.

Jumo-Powered Fw 187s flew with 'classic' cooling, yet pictures and test reports of non-evaporative cooled Daimlerized Fw 187 are elusive as Bigfoot.

See the bottom of my answer for the problems with that. Expanding training programs without making cuts to training time is impossible given the resources of 1933-41 without cutting front line numbers of pilots; in 1939 the Germans had to mobilize instructors and students in training to get their front line numbers up because they simply did not have the resources to train up enough staff in the 1930s to create a large enough Luftwaffe. They were planning on war in 1942, not 1939-40 and were keeping up quality of both instructors and pupils to ensure a flow of quality combat pilots. Check out Edward Homze's, Jame Corum's, and E.R. Hooton's books on the build up of the Luftwaffe in the 1930s and they were producing what they could with what they had without cutting corners in training or sacrificing output of combat pilots to build up the training establishment much larger, which would have ensured a major deficit of pilots available in 1939 as resources would have been plowed into training expansion instead of output of actual combat pilots.

Be it as it was, LW will not win skies over England without enough of good/excellent fighters and enough pilots to fly them. RLM better start plan for war that starts in 1939/40 instead of 1942, importing fuel to improve stocks before war commences etc.

I did, it doesn't show what you're claiming.

Okay, then show a picture or a doc when they stuffed a bigger bomb in bomb bay of Ju 88.

They were separated into two bomb bays because one was supposed to mount extra fuel internally for longer range missions and be sealed. They could have either fit heavier bombs designed around the Ju88s bomb bay internally or altered the bomb bay design if they wanted with the existing wing layout, they just didn't want to because of the original design purpose.

Source? Or just trying to make a bug looks like a design feature?

The addition of dive bombing later to the mission profile was easier service by adding more external bomb racks so that bombs could be dropped in a dive without having to worry about how the angle of dive would impact the exit of bombs from the bay, so they just didn't worry about altering the bomb bay. Plus apparently it impacted the design's speed less to carry drop munitions externally rather than make the air frame larger and heavier to store the bombs internally. See the Do217 for what having high wings and a deep bomb bay for internal carry of big bombs did to the aircraft weight. It left the design seriously underpowered given the engines available in 1940-42.

There is no comparison between Do 217 bomb bay and that of Ju 88. One was rated for 2 tons, later to 3 tons, the Ju 88 carried 1 ton in it's bomb bay.
Position of the wings on Do 217 was excellent, since it allowed for an unrestricted bomb bay. It cruised faster than Ju 88 when both were carrying more than 1 ton of bombs. With almost twice the possible bomb load, Do 217 was a much better bang for buck than Ju 88, though it was too late for 1940.
I keep repeating that I don't intend to make wider or deeper the bomb bay of Ju 88, looks like my English is really bad.

You referred to them as drop tanks. If we are talking about the metal ones for bombers they weren't meant to be dropped except in emergencies, while the paper-wood ones were meant to be dropped ASAP, but those weren't AFAIK used for bombers. US and UK use was different than German use for drop tanks, as they had reserves of aluminum the Germans did not, but even they used a LOT of disposable wooden ones for fighters.

You give me too much of credit.
The manual for the Ju 87R names the drop tanks by the name 'Abwerfbarer Zusatz-Kraftstoffbehaelter', that google translate says it is 'Ejectable auxiliary fuel tank'. Manual for the Do 217E-2/E-3 names them as 'Abwerfbarer Behaelter', that Google says it means 'Discardable container'.

At any rate, I will not discuss merits of better bomb bays or drop tanks in this thread from now on.

The He111 was available in 1940 and could have been produced in larger numbers had the choice not been made to focus on a Ju88 that was pressed into doing universal service and consequently delayed in production due to design issues; anything that gets the Do17 out of production and service before the war is ideal, which means getting the Ju88 into service before the war starts, which in turn means not modifying it to dive and adding extra defensive armament among other things; you can either have it earlier without big bombs or later with them. Since the design and spec were issued before 1936 changing it in 1936 only delays introduction into 1940, which fucks up your entire scheme of improving the Luftwaffe. Having it earlier means keeping it a speed bomber which means then that is is restricted in what roles it could do. Let the bigger, heavier He111 carry the big bombs even externally, as it did IOTL and have the Ju88 focus on army support tasks in conjunction with the Ju87 and Hs123; just make enough He111s that it can do the big bomb jobs.

No worries for my scheme of better Luftwffe.
Ju 88s will be focused in operational and startegical role, depending on current situation.

The only thing bulged Mosquito could do that it couldn't before was take a cookie, which is only for city busting. The Cookie bomb was specifically a block buster to open up roofs for incendiaries to fall in. Are you really going on about producing Ju88's for city bombing AGAIN????
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockbuster_bomb

Nah, something big is needed for blasting factories, marshalling yards, chokepoints, ports, command centers, ships etc. No tiny 50 kg bombs this time.

So with all of that and the need to make bombers to replace the losses in May-June 1940 (as well as those lost in the BoB), I don't know how Germany could make 2-3x as many fighters, even SE fighters. A Bf109Z would certainly make it easier to get economies of scale in production as the long range twin engine fighter would share between 80-90% of parts with the existing SE fighter. That would help for sure. How do you propose stepping up pilot production? Certainly helping improve the Bf109's landing gear would keep accidents down, but cutting training hours and letting in lesser quality pilots to expand numbers would increase the accident rate, as it did IOTL from 1942 on when they did just that. More accidents means more loss of aircraft in training and outside of combat. Already there were noted quality control issues in new aircraft, supposedly due to the influx of Polish PoW labor in aircraft factories. And as it was the simplifications in production that come from longer experience did not yet exist in German factories as it did in 1942 or 1944 when production was dramatically increasing despite not major raw material or labor increases in the airframe industry.

Not embarking on 2-engine fighters is a 1st step on pushing up production numbers for fighters. More pilots will require more trainers and more fuel. That costs money, thus only 60% or Flak is produced in 1936 on, includes also less Flak ammo. That still leaves Germany with 1800+ heavy and ~6000 light Flak guns by June of 1940.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_100#Закупка_СССР
...
Based on the Soviet sources when they were at Heinkel's in December 1939 10 were still being built in the workshop, which would more likely than not include the V20-25 models that Nowarra claims was without the evaporative cooling system.
...
Where do you got that from ? Your soviet source (from your link above) :
Этот самолёт имеет с мотором Даймлер-Бенц 680 км/ч. Этих самолётов мы видели 20—25 штук готовых, около 15 штук на аэродроме и около 10 штук в цехе. Вооружен он пушкой и 2 пулеметами.
translates for me into :
This aircraft has a Daimler-Benz engine of 680 km / h. We saw 20–25 of these planes, about 15 of them at the aerodrome and about 10 of them in the workshop. He is armed with a cannon and 2 machine guns.
... can't find anything about "being built".
IMHO means rather there were 10 planes serviced within the workshop/repair place/hangar.


I would render it also rather doubtful that the russian were shown into the production halls and facilities.

However, the number they saw fit well the D-001 to D-025 preproduction models built also on Heinkels personal account, no "V"s here of which - AFAIK - there were V-1 to V-7.

...
So your super fighter is still a work in progress even as late as December 1939, not a production ready aircraft with the numbers you're quoting those are for the evaporative cooling models.
At least it IS a work in progress in late 1939 IOTL ... what might be speeded up by whatever POD in an ATL.
(Given the fact, that the whole development of the He-100 was a privtae enterprise by Heinkel even against clear advice by Göring and the RLM NOT to pursue this project ...)

Possibly still easier than developing/designing a complete new weapon on a since then in Germany only in some niche-hunting used caliber but never considerdd as a military caliber in german miliotary enviroment that at that time tried to avoid any new caliber, that tried to avoid 'special' heavy MGs as they were just introducing the 'universal machine gun' in its 7,92 caliber.
As a side-note :
The MG 131/13 introduction was delayed by the attempts to create a 'better' 131/8 MG, necked down to their beloved 7.92MM SMK projectiles.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Where do you got that from ? Your soviet source (from your link above) :
translates for me into : ... can't find anything about "being built".
IMHO means rather there were 10 planes serviced within the workshop/repair place/hangar.
Maybe, maybe not, it is unclear exactly what 'workshop' means. Or for that matter all the texts we have don't say when the D20-25 models were actually built, so it is possible they weren't operational yet.

I would render it also rather doubtful that the russian were shown into the production halls and facilities.
They were there multiple to evaluate and buy the aircraft and license, like the Japanese.

However, the number they saw fit well the D-001 to D-025 preproduction models built also on Heinkels personal account, no "V"s here of which - AFAIK - there were V-1 to V-7.
I used prototype because that is what the Soviets said they were based on their evaluations, not productions models. Preproduction models are more than an early prototype, but not an outright production ready model.

At least it IS a work in progress in late 1939 IOTL ... what might be speeded up by whatever POD in an ATL.
(Given the fact, that the whole development of the He-100 was a privtae enterprise by Heinkel even against clear advice by Göring and the RLM NOT to pursue this project ...)
The D20-25 models were only built after the RLM killed the project officially in 1939. Given the weight of pressure against the design that existed it is probably a lost cause in terms of speeding it up. Once the Bf109 is in production the chance of another inline liquid cooled engined SE fighter to get in production is basically nil.

Possibly still easier than developing/designing a complete new weapon on a since then in Germany only in some niche-hunting used caliber but never considerdd as a military caliber in german miliotary enviroment that at that time tried to avoid any new caliber, that tried to avoid 'special' heavy MGs as they were just introducing the 'universal machine gun' in its 7,92 caliber..
That is fair, though a 9mm version could be used, which was a caliber already in service, so the barrel making equipment could be used. The bigger issue might be the cartridge case considering that it was wider than the existing 792 Mauser, but that could be somewhat fixed by using the existing Mauser case and lengthening it, which the Germans did try to do (they also shortened it to make the 7.92 Kurz without significant disruption to production).
http://www.municion.org/7_92x64/7_92x64.htm
http://www.municion.org/7_92x86/7_92x86.htm
http://www.municion.org/8x68/8x68.htm

That way you could use existing equipment to make the cartridge and modify the existing MG by changing the barrel and modifying the feeding mechanism to accept the new length of the cartridge. The bigger bullet with more capacity for explosives would be significantly more effective with minimal new additional equipment needed if at all.

As a side-note :
The MG 131/13 introduction was delayed by the attempts to create a 'better' 131/8 MG, necked down to their beloved 7.92MM SMK projectiles.
Do you have a source on that? This is the first I've heard about it being delayed for that reason. I know the Germans did try that, but it seems like a bizarre reason to delay the introduction of the weapon system over.
http://www.municion.org/792/7_92x81_5.htm

Besides they should have tried to do it in a long 9mm round, like a bigger more powerful .338 magnum used today in the LWMMG or what the French were trying to do with their 9mm MAS:
http://www.municion.org/French/9x66Mas.htm
http://www.municion.org/338Lapua/338Lapua.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.338_Norma_Magnum
 
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SwampTiger

Banned
Any improvement of the Luftwaffe must consider the leadership, Goering, and the purpose of the air arm. If Germany will be invading France, or anyone else with a modern peer air force, it will need to protect its bombers. The hope the fast bomber will succeed in eluding the enemy interceptors and complete its mission must be tested. The Spanish Civil War showed the Schnellbombers could defeat a lesser opponent. However, it did little to develop a strategic mindset. The short-sighted focus on short range fighters and tactical bombing limited the Luftwaffe in 1940.

Now, with the obvious out of the way, the Luftwaffe needs to request fighter and ground attack aircraft able to operate at greater than 300 km beyond the front line. The three obvious choices are the Me 110, Fw 187 and the He 100. The Fw 187 may be able to fulfill both missions. The use of two engines in somewhat limited supply is somewhat offset by its ability to fulfill both missions. The Me 110, if properly tested against single engine fighters, would be shown not capable of anti-fighter duties. The He 100 is only a fighter, and has the poorly conceived evaporative cooling system. We can all agree the Luftwaffe was making an effort to train and develop a pilot force.
Could the German aircraft industry design and build a radial engine ground attack aircraft? In fact, they did develop the Hs 123. Later, they built the Hs 129. Heinkel pointed the way forward with the He 70. An updated version with full metal construction, mid-wing layout, and radial engine could result in an improved ground attack aircraft. The Japanese built the Aichi D3A after inspecting the He 70. BMW certainly could have followed the lead of Italian and Japanese manufacturers and built a 14 or 18 cylinder radial using the P&W 1690 and Jupiter based engines prior to the war.
 

Deleted member 1487

Any improvement of the Luftwaffe must consider the leadership, Goering, and the purpose of the air arm. If Germany will be invading France, or anyone else with a modern peer air force, it will need to protect its bombers. The hope the fast bomber will succeed in eluding the enemy interceptors and complete its mission must be tested. The Spanish Civil War showed the Schnellbombers could defeat a lesser opponent. However, it did little to develop a strategic mindset. The short-sighted focus on short range fighters and tactical bombing limited the Luftwaffe in 1940.
Per the OP we are designing an air force with hindsight using existing or at least possible technologies of the day without regard to the politics of the changes.

Now, with the obvious out of the way, the Luftwaffe needs to request fighter and ground attack aircraft able to operate at greater than 300 km beyond the front line. The three obvious choices are the Me 110, Fw 187 and the He 100. The Fw 187 may be able to fulfill both missions. The use of two engines in somewhat limited supply is somewhat offset by its ability to fulfill both missions. The Me 110, if properly tested against single engine fighters, would be shown not capable of anti-fighter duties. The He 100 is only a fighter, and has the poorly conceived evaporative cooling system. We can all agree the Luftwaffe was making an effort to train and develop a pilot force.
The Fw187 does fit the long range escort role quite well given the historical technological limitations, but that means it is somewhat limited in other areas relative to other options, including bomber destruction due to the inability to reload in the air like the Bf110 could. The Bf110 does have a lot going for it as a multirole aircraft, but with pretty critical limitations especially in the long range escort role. The He100 is a non-starter due to how late it was ready IOTL and a murky performance without it's special radiator system (the same can be said to a degree about the Fw187). The Me109Z would have helped with the production situation due to parts commonality and resulting economies of scale, even if performance isn't all that the 1941 version would have been or what something like the Fw187 could have theoretically achieved, but it would have been a fine fighter-bomber and potentially a decent night fighter, though not as good as a Ju88C. In 1940 that's really not a significant issue though.

Then there is the potential that Tomo mentioned of using the Me109 as a long range fighter and bomber killer without the need for a two engine fighter if there was a decent drop tank option. Having one research on drop tanks as a result of this convo, a wooden one use one was used IOTL, but the Luftwaffe one in 1940 was faulty; however other air forces got them to work, including the RAF and USAAF, so perhaps with earlier and more investment into developing the cheap disposable ones that worked long enough to be used properly they could be ready in time for war and make the need for a purpose built long range escort fighter moot. There is no special technical reason the Bf109E couldn't have been fitted with a drop tank mechanism earlier or earlier work on the drop tank have been done, especially as the research into it and production of them would have been much cheaper than developing a separate long range fighter. For a night fighter and day time bomber destroyer the Ju88C would have been just fine and perhaps indeed desirable, same for it's used as a longer range/heavier ground attack aircraft. It would probably have been cheaper to field more of other models than have a separate unit like the Bf110 to fill the niche. Fewer types mean more economies of scale in production, i.e. doing more with the same inputs of material and labor.


Could the German aircraft industry design and build a radial engine ground attack aircraft? In fact, they did develop the Hs 123. Later, they built the Hs 129. Heinkel pointed the way forward with the He 70. An updated version with full metal construction, mid-wing layout, and radial engine could result in an improved ground attack aircraft. The Japanese built the Aichi D3A after inspecting the He 70. BMW certainly could have followed the lead of Italian and Japanese manufacturers and built a 14 or 18 cylinder radial using the P&W 1690 and Jupiter based engines prior to the war.
The Hs123 was just that aircraft and arguably better for that role than the Hs129 turned out to be, not to mention cheaper.

BMW tried to do exactly what you're describing, but ran into all sort of technical problems with the BMW 139 engine, which later morphed into the BMW 801.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_801#Precursor_design
It seems like all German efforts at coupled engines ran into serious design issues (BMW 803 and DB606 included).
 
...However, it did little to develop a strategic mindset. The short-sighted focus on short range fighters and tactical bombing limited the Luftwaffe in 1940.

Strategic aspect was not lost on the Luftwaffe of late 1930s.
The Me 110s were supposed to tackle enemy fighters above and airports, while Do 17, He 111 and Ju 88 were to attack targets deep in enemy territory (don't let the number of engines per bomber fools you, RAF have had Whitleys, Wellingtons and Hampdens for the same job, even the Battle was a 1000 mile bomber); Hs 123 and Ju 87 were to act as 'flying artillery' in support of Heer. Luftwaffe bombers' job was easy when defenders were caught unprepared and were without radar-assisted C&C network, however they were in troubles against prepared, numerous and well led defence.

Now, with the obvious out of the way, the Luftwaffe needs to request fighter and ground attack aircraft able to operate at greater than 300 km beyond the front line. The three obvious choices are the Me 110, Fw 187 and the He 100. The Fw 187 may be able to fulfill both missions. The use of two engines in somewhat limited supply is somewhat offset by its ability to fulfill both missions. The Me 110, if properly tested against single engine fighters, would be shown not capable of anti-fighter duties. The He 100 is only a fighter, and has the poorly conceived evaporative cooling system. We can all agree the Luftwaffe was making an effort to train and develop a pilot force.

Evaporative cooling on the He 100 seems well conceived to me - it worked as advertised. On the other hand, any evaporative cooling system is hardly combat-viable. Hence my suggestion for leading-edge extensions for classic cooling system.
RAF's effort to train and develop pilot force seem to me as much more fruitful.

Could the German aircraft industry design and build a radial engine ground attack aircraft? In fact, they did develop the Hs 123. Later, they built the Hs 129. Heinkel pointed the way forward with the He 70. An updated version with full metal construction, mid-wing layout, and radial engine could result in an improved ground attack aircraft. The Japanese built the Aichi D3A after inspecting the He 70. BMW certainly could have followed the lead of Italian and Japanese manufacturers and built a 14 or 18 cylinder radial using the P&W 1690 and Jupiter based engines prior to the war.

Engine question need to be adressed. Radials made in Germany were nothing special - 900-1050 HP at low altitudes, low weight, and good availablity, but also a big frontal area. I've proposed the 'radial Stuka' already, but perhaps grafting the Bramo 323 on He 112 (the eariest version with bigger wing) would not be a bad idea? Switch to the G&R 14N once France falls.
Engine situation might be improved by buying licence for the P&W R-2180A; the R-1830 is/was nothing special on 87 oct fuel.

BMW tried to do exactly what you're describing, but ran into all sort of technical problems with the BMW 139 engine, which later morphed into the BMW 801.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_801#Precursor_design
It seems like all German efforts at coupled engines ran into serious design issues (BMW 803 and DB606 included).

BMW/Bramo made a big mistake with BMW 139 when opting to have only one location for crankshaft bearing: three bearings located one next to another between the crank throws. No big-end bearings. That decision doomed the 139, and 801 emerged as a full redesign of the 139, featuring 3 separate bearings for crankshaft - one at each big end, third between crank throws. That also meant that 801 was both longer and heavier than 139.
 
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The D20-25 models were only built after the RLM killed the project officially in 1939. Given the weight of pressure against the design that existed it is probably a lost cause in terms of speeding it up. Once the Bf109 is in production the chance of another inline liquid cooled engined SE fighter to get in production is basically nil.
You just changed from technical to political argument..While this argument is the “official” argument Heinkel presented IOTL, its not exactly a good argument in an AHC..
All it requires is a change of decision. It could come about for any number of reasons. Starting with it takes fewer engines than Bf-110 or FW-187. Or Daimler gets the full expansion of the marienburg factory to pick some of your own arguments.
Maybe somebody want a next generation aircraft that is made for mass production from the onset?
Or maybe, the conclusion from Hitlers expectations that Germany might need to fight the British filters into the RLM and they decide they need an air superiority fighter?

PS. I do like the FW—187 to. There we agree.
 
A interesting read all of this is. Of all the discussed items, its seems the JU88 in its original design, seems the easiest to pull off, the most obvious, and easy to get to a POD.

Its extra range would have been handy over Norway, it faster speed means more bombers would have survived May-September (and been usable in Barbarossa), its lighter weight means it uses less fuel generally.

However none of that really wins anything in 1940. Germany isn't winning the BOB, isn't breaking up the evacuations from France. The extra surviving aircraft pool built up over time might tip Leningrad to them in 41 or Malta in 42 perhaps.

Question for the experts. it it rangy enough in this light weight configuration to use as a FW 200 replacement for recon work in the Atlantic??
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Evaporative cooling was a dangerous bet for Heinkel and Focke-Wulf. A more conservative approach to engine cooling would have allowed their aircraft earlier development. The He-100 D-1 appears to be a long stride forward for a single engine escort fighter. The FW 187 has the same disadvantage as the Me 110, two valuable engines.

The Germans could have looked at other nation's double row engines. The Gnome-Rhone 14K, Pratt & Whitney R1535 and R-1830, and the Fiat A.74 were available for licensing. NACA had published several investigations on engine cooling, cowling and fan use. The failure of the BMW 139 shows poor decision making at the design stage. The Japanese easily bested the German efforts in this area. The Gnome-Rhone also suffered from poor layout of the crankshaft bearings.

The issue of cannon versus machine gun should have been decided during the Spanish Civil War. The Soviets quickly developed cannons based on their experiences. Their later use of machine guns was predicated on the low carrying capacity of their fighters. I still don't understand the delay in providing a belt feed for the MG FF. Ikaria had the license since 1936. Several fighter designers tried to package the gun into wing mounts. Yet, the Germans never managed to duplicate what the French, British and Japanese designed. A 1939 MG FF with belt feed would have greatly increased the hitting power of the Me 109, Me 110 and whatever long range escort or ground attack plane offered. Yes, other cannon were better. The MG FF was there when needed.

I can see the possibility of licensing the P&W R-2180. I see the XB-21 first flight was December 1936. Would the US allow German licensing of these engines? The DC-4E was sold to Japan in late 1939, so probably.
 
The Germans could have looked at other nation's double row engines. The Gnome-Rhone 14K, Pratt & Whitney R1535 and R-1830, and the Fiat A.74 were available for licensing. NACA had published several investigations on engine cooling, cowling and fan use. The failure of the BMW 139 shows poor decision making at the design stage. The Japanese easily bested the German efforts in this area. The Gnome-Rhone also suffered from poor layout of the crankshaft bearings.

Japanese bested Germans in low-power radials (750-1200 HP), but BMW 801 was one notch above Japanese radials, only Homare and Ha 42 equaling it in raw power.
R-1535 and A.74 don't buy anything to the Germans, too low power offered there. R-1830 on 87 oct fuel is no great shakes either, and supercharger pre-1941 is indifferent. G&R K14 is a host of reliability problems and low power, cured somewhat with N14 series, and fixed too late with R14, that introduced central bearing, bulked up internals and 2-speed supercharger. German use of N14 and R14 in combat A/C represents an interesting what-if.
At the end of the day, like the UK, Germany managed to create succesful aircraft and effective airforce without great radial engines since their V12s were very good/excellent early in the war and imeditely pre-war.

...
Yet, the Germans never managed to duplicate what the French, British and Japanese designed.
...

Not sure what you are trying to say here.
 

SwampTiger

Banned
Japanese bested Germans in low-power radials (750-1200 HP), but BMW 801 was one notch above Japanese radials, only Homare and Ha 42 equaling it in raw power.
R-1535 and A.74 don't buy anything to the Germans, too low power offered there. R-1830 on 87 oct fuel is no great shakes either, and supercharger pre-1941 is indifferent. G&R K14 is a host of reliability problems and low power, cured somewhat with N14 series, and fixed too late with R14, that introduced central bearing, bulked up internals and 2-speed supercharger. German use of N14 and R14 in combat A/C represents an interesting what-if.
At the end of the day, like the UK, Germany managed to create succesful aircraft and effective airforce without great radial engines since their V12s were very good/excellent early in the war and imeditely pre-war.



Not sure what you are trying to say here.

The Idea I am pushing is to use the earlier American, french and Italian designs to study solutions for twin row radials. The Germans got the BMW 801 two years after the start of WW2.
 

Deleted member 1487

You just changed from technical to political argument..While this argument is the “official” argument Heinkel presented IOTL, its not exactly a good argument in an AHC..
All it requires is a change of decision. It could come about for any number of reasons. Starting with it takes fewer engines than Bf-110 or FW-187. Or Daimler gets the full expansion of the marienburg factory to pick some of your own arguments.
Maybe somebody want a next generation aircraft that is made for mass production from the onset?
Or maybe, the conclusion from Hitlers expectations that Germany might need to fight the British filters into the RLM and they decide they need an air superiority fighter?

PS. I do like the FW—187 to. There we agree.
Technically I brought up both issues. The non-special cooling version of the He100 only arrived after it was a dead project. Even changing that decision it still can only enter mass production based on the OTL technical development in 1940. Even fixing that part of things and saying that with all the air frame changes it is fixed up in Summer 1939 it is still too late, because production is only going to start later that year and compete with the Bf109 for production resources and engines, which limits production output; we can have more with the Bf109E alone in production and extending the range with an earlier drop tank program. Starting the 109's aerodynamics modernization program that resulted in the F-series before 1939 might even get us an F-series for use in 1940 even if it has to use a weaker gun in the motor cannon spot instead of two 20's in the wings, like Tomo's Breda, though perhaps the F with the 20s in the wings like Galland's special version was possible just with worse maneuverability.
 

Deleted member 1487

Question for the experts. it it rangy enough in this light weight configuration to use as a FW 200 replacement for recon work in the Atlantic??
The Ju88 even lightened was too short legged for that even at max fuel. Plus carrying bombs would have reduced the range. The Fw200 IIRC even was packed to the gills and had more hauling capacity for fuel. Plus the Ju88's Jumos weren't using pressurized cooling, so had a limited altitude IIRC.
I'd imagine a light, more aerodynamic Ju88 might extend it's range about 200 miles or so with only fuel onboard, which still puts it several hundred miles behind the Fw200.

But if we're talking about long range naval recon the answer has always been the Do26. Even had diesel engines for better and cheaper fuel consumption, plus over 1000 miles more range than the Fw200.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_26#Specifications_–_civilian_Do_26A
 
Technically I brought up both issues. The non-special cooling version of the He100 only arrived after it was a dead project. Even changing that decision it still can only enter mass production based on the OTL technical development in 1940. Even fixing that part of things and saying that with all the air frame changes it is fixed up in Summer 1939 it is still too late, because production is only going to start later that year and compete with the Bf109 for production resources and engines, which limits production output; we can have more with the Bf109E alone in production and extending the range with an earlier drop tank program. Starting the 109's aerodynamics modernization program that resulted in the F-series before 1939 might even get us an F-series for use in 1940 even if it has to use a weaker gun in the motor cannon spot instead of two 20's in the wings, like Tomo's Breda, though perhaps the F with the 20s in the wings like Galland's special version was possible just with worse maneuverability.
But here you are ignoring nomommsens point, that led to this. What if the project, for what ever reason, had gotten RLM support earlier. More prototypes, different risk mitigation strategies pursued. Then it’s a totally viable 1940’s candidate.
 
The Idea I am pushing is to use the earlier American, french and Italian designs to study solutions for twin row radials. The Germans got the BMW 801 two years after the start of WW2.

Okay, I get it now.
We can see that Germans were never much into designing radials, buying licences at Bristol and P&W was done instead of developing their own stuff until pretty late.
Neither French nor Italian 2-row radials were that good, bar the (too late for the French) G&R 14R.

The Ju88 even lightened was too short legged for that even at max fuel. Plus carrying bombs would have reduced the range. The Fw200 IIRC even was packed to the gills and had more hauling capacity for fuel. Plus the Ju88's Jumos weren't using pressurized cooling, so had a limited altitude IIRC.
I'd imagine a light, more aerodynamic Ju88 might extend it's range about 200 miles or so with only fuel onboard, which still puts it several hundred miles behind the Fw200.

But if we're talking about long range naval recon the answer has always been the Do26. Even had diesel engines for better and cheaper fuel consumption, plus over 1000 miles more range than the Fw200.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_26#Specifications_–_civilian_Do_26A

Good call on long range Do 26 and it's diesels, as well as too short the range of Ju 88s for realy long ranges.
Jumo engines used pressure cooling at least from the time of the Junkers 88 engine (that also featured 2-stage S/C and intercooler), managing to fly above 40000 ft with it on Ju 49. Nobody in ww2 used non-pressurized cooling, bar perhaps some left-overs (early SB-2 bombers? Hawker Hinds?).
 
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Deleted member 1487

But here you are ignoring nomommsens point, that led to this. What if the project, for what ever reason, had gotten RLM support earlier. More prototypes, different risk mitigation strategies pursued. Then it’s a totally viable 1940’s candidate.
By the time the entire project started the Bf109 was already in production, which effectively moots the He100, as it largely then just a duplication of effort and it would take too long to get in production to make it worthwhile when the option is to boost Bf109 production and get a working wooden drop tank in service to boost the range. Even without the evaporative cooling issue the first prototype didn't fly until 1938 by which time the Bf109 was in production and then it required a lot of development to even fix it's problems, which pushes us back to a summer 1939 date to start tooling for the design, which means maybe if lucky the Germans can get it into service in early 1940, which historically would be a major issue due to the production mess of OTL 1939 due to incomplete war time mobilization planning and competing resource demands of 1940. At best you're looking at a few staffel being combat ready by summer 1940. Plowing all those resources into expanding Bf109 production+drop tanks would just yield much more combat aircraft by 1940. Note this is also assuming the Bf110 is killed and the resources are put into Bf109 production too.
 

Deleted member 1487

Good call on long range Do 26 and it's diesels, as well as too short the range of Ju 88s for realy long ranges.
Jumo engines used pressure cooling at least from the time of the Junkers 88 engine (that also featured 2-stage S/C and intercooler), managing to fly above 40000 ft with it on Ju 49. Nobody in ww2 used non-pressurized cooling, bar perhaps some left-overs (early SB-2 bombers? Hawker Hinds?).
I got that from the wikipedia article on the Jumo 211, which may be wrong; if you have some sourcing I'm all ears:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_211
A major upgrade was started by Junkers in 1940 adapting the Jumo 211 with a pressurized cooling system. Under pressure, the boiling point of water increases, allowing the engine to run hotter. This, in turn, allows a given amount of cooling fluid to carry away more energy. As a result, the engine could run at higher power settings with a smaller radiator system. The resulting 211E proved to be able to run at much higher power settings without overheating, so it was quickly followed by the 211F which included a strengthened crankshaft and a more efficient supercharger. Running at 2,600 RPM the 211F delivered 1,340 PS (1,320 hp; 990 kW) and the 211J (a 211F with intercooler) 1,420 PS (1,400 hp; 1,040 kW). Further improvements to this basic line led to the 1,450 PS (1,430 hp; 1,070 kW) 211N and 1,500 PS (1,500 hp; 1,100 kW) 211P in 1943, they were equivalent to the 211F/J but with slight boost increases and running at up to 2,700 rpm. Continued development of the 211 line evolved into the Jumo 213.
The intercooler according to this only appeared 211J, which IIRC was 1942 engine. The 211F first appeared in 1941:
http://www.hugojunkers.bplaced.net/junkers-jumo-211.html
The first Ju88 that got the 211F was the A-4, which showed up in 1941 with the 211F, the first A-4 air frames showed up IOTL late in the Battle of Britain, but with the 211B/D engines and was slower than the A-1 series that was the primary Ju88 for 1940 due to airframe improvements that increased weight. The 211F boosted the A-4's speed due to it's increased power.
 

Deleted member 1487

No risk. Bf 109E-3 was the only fighter in the world that combined bomber-busting firepower with speed and rate of climb in 1939. RAF was taking a bigger risk with 8 LMGs for bomber busting.
Biger drums (75, 90 rds) were on offering well before ww2 started by Oerlikon, the Breda 12.7mm is belt fed, drop tanks were in use all around the world, including Luftwaffe (on He 51 and Hs 123), by the time of Spanish civil war. The dots are there, just connect them in a timely manner.
Not sure those bigger drums fit in the wings of the Bf109E. So for the sake of argument I'll concede that the dropping of the Bf110 would boost Bf109 production and with working drop tanks made of wood would fix the range issue. That still leaves a gap for a heavy gunship for ground/naval attack and a night fighter, but a lightened speed Ju88 C series would fill that role. The Breda could have a role with the right aircraft, certainly the Hs123C could use some of those 12.7mm HMGs for ground attack, though if you have the 20mms for the Bf109 for bomber busting they should stick with those IMHO, they were far more lethal than the 13mm HEI shells even the Germans had. A 3x Breda fighter though might well be a decent enough fighter killer though, but IMHO is still inferior due to the maneuverability penalties it imposes due to the weight in the wings. IMHO there would be a benefit to having a heavy armament Bf109 for bomber killing (say 2x 20mms in the wings and 1x Breda 12.7 in the motor cannon mount) and a lighter armament Bf109 for fighter hunting, say the Breda in the motor cannon and 9x64mm modified MG17s in the hose to boost their damage while leaving the wings free of any weight to boost maneuverability and speed and with that probably a bit of range; having a light Bf109E as a pure fighter killer has benefits too in that it would be more maneuverable and faster to deal with the RAF fighters.

Jumo-Powered Fw 187s flew with 'classic' cooling, yet pictures and test reports of non-evaporative cooled Daimlerized Fw 187 are elusive as Bigfoot.
I ordered the best book I could find about the Fw187, will get back to you about any info it has on the Daimler Fw187.

Be it as it was, LW will not win skies over England without enough of good/excellent fighters and enough pilots to fly them. RLM better start plan for war that starts in 1939/40 instead of 1942, importing fuel to improve stocks before war commences etc.
If per this discussion we are going total hindsight on when the war is starting there are tons of things we could have done pre-war that would boost the war economy on day 1 of the war and pretty dramatically alter things like output in more than just the Luftwaffe, as well as allocate resources better between the services (i.e. not fund the surface fleet of the navy and get more Uboats).

Okay, then show a picture or a doc when they stuffed a bigger bomb in bomb bay of Ju 88.
That's my point, there were no intermediate bombs to even enable it to be tried. The Brits were able to adapt their lighter bombs with modifications for the Mosquito because they had bombs lighter than 250kg to even try.

Source? Or just trying to make a bug looks like a design feature?
"Die Ju88 und ihre Folgemuster" by Heinz Nowarra and William Green's "Warplanes of the Third Reich"

There is no comparison between Do 217 bomb bay and that of Ju 88. One was rated for 2 tons, later to 3 tons, the Ju 88 carried 1 ton in it's bomb bay.
Position of the wings on Do 217 was excellent, since it allowed for an unrestricted bomb bay. It cruised faster than Ju 88 when both were carrying more than 1 ton of bombs. With almost twice the possible bomb load, Do 217 was a much better bang for buck than Ju 88, though it was too late for 1940.
I keep repeating that I don't intend to make wider or deeper the bomb bay of Ju 88, looks like my English is really bad.
Right, because the Do217 was designed to carry heavy bombs internally, which meant making it quite a bit bigger. To carry the biggest bombs it had to be rated to carry 2-3 tons of weight and be large enough internally to actually fit them. The Do217 also had much more powerful engines, which even then left them underpowered in the initial versions. Having a light payload meant though that it was able to be faster; if you fit the Ju88 with BMW801 engines it would have been even faster than the Do217. Of course you're not factoring in the cost of the Do217 was considerably more due to the increased size and complexity of the design.
51359614-jpg.259176


How about we compare like to like in terms of speed, once the Ju88 and Do217 got the same engines:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_88#Specifications_Ju_88_G-1
Performance


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_217#Specifications_(Do_217_J-2)
Performance


As to it being underpowered, this is Eric Brown's take:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dornier_Do_217#Flying_the_Do_217_M-1


You give me too much of credit.
The manual for the Ju 87R names the drop tanks by the name 'Abwerfbarer Zusatz-Kraftstoffbehaelter', that google translate says it is 'Ejectable auxiliary fuel tank'. Manual for the Do 217E-2/E-3 names them as 'Abwerfbarer Behaelter', that Google says it means 'Discardable container'.

At any rate, I will not discuss merits of better bomb bays or drop tanks in this thread from now on.
Your call.

No worries for my scheme of better Luftwffe.
Ju 88s will be focused in operational and startegical role, depending on current situation.
Which is not what it was designed for. If you want a purely operational/strategic bomber there is already the He111, which was more capable in that realm. The Do217 wouldn't be around yet as it's engines aren't ready. The He111 was already in production, a mature design, was upgradeable still, and having fewer bomber types could boost production output.

Nah, something big is needed for blasting factories, marshalling yards, chokepoints, ports, command centers, ships etc. No tiny 50 kg bombs this time.
If you'd have looked at the charts I posted earlier the USAAF found that their even smaller 100lbs bombs were ideal for attacking several of the targets you listed, with the 500lbs bombs better for a more limited target profile...which the HE111 could and should handle.
bombs.jpg


Not embarking on 2-engine fighters is a 1st step on pushing up production numbers for fighters. More pilots will require more trainers and more fuel. That costs money, thus only 60% or Flak is produced in 1936 on, includes also less Flak ammo. That still leaves Germany with 1800+ heavy and ~6000 light Flak guns by June of 1940.
Ok, for the sake of argument let's go for that. How many more fighters does that yield?
 
I got that from the wikipedia article on the Jumo 211, which may be wrong; if you have some sourcing I'm all ears:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Jumo_211

Pg. 86 of 'Flugmotoren und strahltriebwerke' book, part of book dealing with Jumo 211 series:

"Die Bauereihen A bis H hatten eine geschlossene Druckkuehlanlage..."
that translated by Google translate means:

"The construction series A to H had a closed pressure cooling system..."

[/QUOTE]The intercooler according to this only appeared 211J, which IIRC was 1942 engine. The 211F first appeared in 1941:
http://www.hugojunkers.bplaced.net/junkers-jumo-211.html
The first Ju88 that got the 211F was the A-4, which showed up in 1941 with the 211F, the first A-4 air frames showed up IOTL late in the Battle of Britain, but with the 211B/D engines and was slower than the A-1 series that was the primary Ju88 for 1940 due to airframe improvements that increased weight. The 211F boosted the A-4's speed due to it's increased power. [/QUOTE]

Junkers L 88 engine, not Ju-88 aircraft, sorry for dropping the letter. Intercooler is mentioned at pg. 80 of 'Flugmotoren und strahltriebwerke' book.
'Jumo' (Junkers motors, roughly) got that name some time in mid/second half of 1930s.
 
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