AHC: the best possible Luftwaffe for 1940

JAG88

Banned
Very thick, long, and draggy to generate the extra lift necessary to cope with the low power of their engines. Plus the fuselage was exceptionally small and the bomb bay also smaller than the He111 to make up for the lack of power.

True, but the extra power of the new engines would certainly improve its performance allowing it to carry more fuel and bombs, and you can even clip the wings a bit or redesign it, but I would use the Ju 89 in that regard, being larger and knowing it capable of lifting a 10t payload with its crappy engines.
 
Might as well try to dieselize the FW200 rather than bother with making the Do19 work.

The problems with the Fw200 were fairly fundamental. A huge amount of work had to be done to fit gun positions and the bomb aimer's position. The bomb racks were fitted outside to avoid compromising the monocoque structure. The undercarriage (especially on early models) was weak and maintenance like removing the wings could not be done at unit level. All in all it was a bit of a dog, while the Do19 was at least designed from the outset as a military aircraft and, with some work, could have done the job IMHO far more efficiently.

know some development was done for a five engine Condor, they likely could have cruised on three engines for some fuel savings?

in latter days of the war they also schemed to have towing hooks on all the large aircraft, have seen speculation as much as 25% fuel savings from being towed aloft? (seems high but suffice that enough was seen to pursue that option)

my speculation is always for a little Fritz-X derived from SC-250 bomb (which is what the Condor carried historically) so they would not have to go thru some of the OTL maneuvers that cost many aircraft?
 

JAG88

Banned
know some development was done for a five engine Condor, they likely could have cruised on three engines for some fuel savings?

in latter days of the war they also schemed to have towing hooks on all the large aircraft, have seen speculation as much as 25% fuel savings from being towed aloft? (seems high but suffice that enough was seen to pursue that option)

my speculation is always for a little Fritz-X derived from SC-250 bomb (which is what the Condor carried historically) so they would not have to go thru some of the OTL maneuvers that cost many aircraft?

Ju 87 aerial refuelling.jpg


;)
 

Deleted member 1487

True, but the extra power of the new engines would certainly improve its performance allowing it to carry more fuel and bombs, and you can even clip the wings a bit or redesign it, but I would use the Ju 89 in that regard, being larger and knowing it capable of lifting a 10t payload with its crappy engines.
Improve to a degree, but the design so was draggy that it would not get as great an increase as it should. Again, if you're going to invest in an aircraft of that size with four engines it should be able to perform as well as the engines will let it, which means a total redesign that would amount to starting from scratch. Clipping the wings won't solve the issue either.

Being able to lift 10 tons doesn't mean it could actually do anything with it in a combat situation.

A dedicated ground attack version should have shown up much earlier
I don't know how much earlier you could expect given that they needed every one as a fighter, as it was their best design as of late 1941 through 1942 for most tasks. Only when there was enough production was the fighter-bomber variant put into production, though the design was ready earlier IIRC.
 

JAG88

Banned
Improve to a degree, but the design so was draggy that it would not get as great an increase as it should. Again, if you're going to invest in an aircraft of that size with four engines it should be able to perform as well as the engines will let it, which means a total redesign that would amount to starting from scratch. Clipping the wings won't solve the issue either.


If you are willing to have 2-3 different types of medium bombers you can afford to drop one and have a go at a heavy, the 89 eventually made it into service as the 290 after being converted into an airliner, the LW could have simply developed the aircraft and gotten it into service in 1939, even change the wing later as with the He 111. The point is, being large, the Ju 89 had plenty of space for growth, it was silly to simply scratch all the resources invested, at least a limited prototype series should have been completed as Wimmer demanded, but in the end the nazis won.


Being able to lift 10 tons doesn't mean it could actually do anything with it in a combat situation.

Meaning?
 

Deleted member 1487

If you are willing to have 2-3 different types of medium bombers you can afford to drop one and have a go at a heavy, the 89 eventually made it into service as the 290 after being converted into an airliner, the LW could have simply developed the aircraft and gotten it into service in 1939, even change the wing later as with the He 111. The point is, being large, the Ju 89 had plenty of space for growth, it was silly to simply scratch all the resources invested, at least a limited prototype series should have been completed as Wimmer demanded, but in the end the nazis won.
The Ju89 was quite different from the Ju90 and in the end the Ju290. When looking into the cost of developing the design they opted to start fresh with the Bomber A/He177 design instead. And that was by the pro-strategic bomber CoS Walter Wever.
Wimmer and Wever wanted the Ju89 and Do19 prototypes as trainers/practice aircraft, not as developmental models; they planned that to be the He177/Bomber A. Which of course Udet bungled badly.

Meaning that it would be very slow and vulnerable as well as probably a total dog to maneuver.
 
A part from better aircraft and more aircraft what the Luftwaffe needs is more trained pilots and a better training school with experience combat pilots.
It also need a better leader that Hermann Göring.
Better organised Luftwaffe.
It also needs to pick it's battles better.
Battle of Britain was just a waste of resources and pilots.
Trying to resupply the army at Stalingrad was a big mistake too.
It needs enigma codes that are much harder to break.
Higher octane fuel and drop tanks would be useful too.
 
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JAG88

Banned
The Ju89 was quite different from the Ju90 and in the end the Ju290. When looking into the cost of developing the design they opted to start fresh with the Bomber A/He177 design instead. And that was by the pro-strategic bomber CoS Walter Wever.
Wimmer and Wever wanted the Ju89 and Do19 prototypes as trainers/practice aircraft, not as developmental models; they planned that to be the He177/Bomber A. Which of course Udet bungled badly.


Meaning that it would be very slow and vulnerable as well as probably a total dog to maneuver.

The Ju90 got a new fuselage since it was to be an airliner, an unnecessary change for a bomber, the relevant change is the new wing, and that could have been done as the Ju89 was developed and, seeing the V5 performance with the new wing, I really dont see the benefit.


Ju 90 prototypes data.jpg


As you can see, the new wing WORSENED the Ju90's performance, with more powerful engines (4x140PS) and slightly more fuel, max and cruise speed, and range went all down, same payload... so I dont see an improvement here, on the contrary.

So, in order to FIX that, it was morphed again into the Ju290, were the ungainly liner fuselage was enlarged yet again and so was the wing, and this ever growing mess needed 1560PS BMW 801s to drag itself across the sky...

I truly see no benefit to the Ju90/290 evolution, in the end the 290 needed 1750PS BMW 801s burning C3 in order to have a decent performance, I think with some development the Ju89 could have done much better and using readily available Jumo 211s at that.

Beyond that, heavy bombers are not maneuverable, not in any meaningful sense and they are slow to anyone trying to chase them down.
 
Improve to a degree, but the design so was draggy that it would not get as great an increase as it should. Again, if you're going to invest in an aircraft of that size with four engines it should be able to perform as well as the engines will let it, which means a total redesign that would amount to starting from scratch. Clipping the wings won't solve the issue either.

Being able to lift 10 tons doesn't mean it could actually do anything with it in a combat situation.


I don't know how much earlier you could expect given that they needed every one as a fighter, as it was their best design as of late 1941 through 1942 for most tasks. Only when there was enough production was the fighter-bomber variant put into production, though the design was ready earlier IIRC.
The Ju-87 was in desperate need of replacement. Its shortcomings severely hurt the luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain. Having a dive bomber / fighter bomber capable of operating in 1940 in contested airspace would have had a major effect on the Dunkirk evacuation and the Battle of Britain.
 
The Ju-87 was in desperate need of replacement. Its shortcomings severely hurt the luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain. Having a dive bomber / fighter bomber capable of operating in 1940 in contested airspace would have had a major effect on the Dunkirk evacuation and the Battle of Britain.


German Jabo development was driven by experience during the BoB. To speed this up the Stukas need to show their shortcomings earlier.
 
There is certainly much ground to cover on that field...

Beginning with the KM not hiding radar from the LW, the LW not taking the KM's aircraft, getting rid of Gorings people, getting rid of Raeder, better technical training for the KM personnel, better basic training for the LW pilots, more LW pilots, a true OKW...

In the end means "less nazis" in nazi Germany... x'D

I see your point.
I tried to propose limited, reasonable improvements as to the basic Luftwaffe's mission, the doctrine, the way of thinking, the strategies, and, eventually, very small improvements in the nuts and bolts too. I did not go very far because yes, it would have defied suspension of disbelief in Nazi Germany. Anyway, it's in the first chapters here:
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/a-better-show-in-1940.103866/
 

Deleted member 1487

The Ju-87 was in desperate need of replacement. Its shortcomings severely hurt the luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain. Having a dive bomber / fighter bomber capable of operating in 1940 in contested airspace would have had a major effect on the Dunkirk evacuation and the Battle of Britain.
Eh, the Ju87 was fine as France, the Balkans, and the Eastern Front showed. It just needed air superiority to work, which was not to be had given the lack of fighters.
Besides the answer was the Bf110 fighter-bomber, which was just being trialed with ErpGr. 210. It was just misused as a long range fighter...but until then it had worked as such, so they didn't really know for sure it wasn't great in that role given an integrated air defense system like the Brits had. Fighter-bombers though still suffer in the face of enemy fighters anyway, as WW2 demonstrated; during the BoB even the fighter-bombers of the ErpGr. 210 suffered heavy casualties from ground fire and sometimes enemy fighters when intercepted. There was no magic bullet in terms of technology at the time, just better tactics. Anyway Stephen Bungay in "Most Dangerous Enemy" proposed a strategy about how the Germans could have won the BoB with the equipment and personnel they had, but he does rely on a hefty bit of hindsight to get there.

German Jabo development was driven by experience during the BoB. To speed this up the Stukas need to show their shortcomings earlier.
Sort of, ErpGr. 210 was formed before the BoB started and trialed during the BoB. So there was a perceived need to try something different even beforehand.
 

Deleted member 1487

The Ju90 got a new fuselage since it was to be an airliner, an unnecessary change for a bomber, the relevant change is the new wing, and that could have been done as the Ju89 was developed and, seeing the V5 performance with the new wing, I really dont see the benefit.
The Ju89 needed major changes to the fuselage as well due to the low bomb load capacity, since it was only 1600kg, less than that of the He111. Unless you want to just mount bombs externally. The wing would also have to change and would the cockpit. The Ju290 was quite a bit different than the Ju90 in all the above areas.

As you can see, the new wing WORSENED the Ju90's performance, with more powerful engines (4x140PS) and slightly more fuel, max and cruise speed, and range went all down, same payload... so I dont see an improvement here, on the contrary.

So, in order to FIX that, it was morphed again into the Ju290, were the ungainly liner fuselage was enlarged yet again and so was the wing, and this ever growing mess needed 1560PS BMW 801s to drag itself across the sky...

I truly see no benefit to the Ju90/290 evolution, in the end the 290 needed 1750PS BMW 801s burning C3 in order to have a decent performance, I think with some development the Ju89 could have done much better and using readily available Jumo 211s at that.

Beyond that, heavy bombers are not maneuverable, not in any meaningful sense and they are slow to anyone trying to chase them down.
Of course the Ju90's changes made the military performance worse, because it was designed around civilian luxury transport needs. The engine used was only marginally more powerful until the Jumo 211F (a 1943 engine btw) or Double Wasp engines (American engines that weren't available in wartime) were added, but note that the empty weight went up substantially as did the loaded weight with passengers. Look at the max start weight too, that was quite a bit higher for the Double Wasp model vs. the Ju89. The civilian model was set up for something substantially different than the light loaded Ural Bomber design.

The Ju290 had to mount bombs externally, as the converted version was a military transport that was shoehorned into the long range recon role with bombs attached much like the Fw200 (it was adapted from the civilian version for the Japanese as a long range naval recon aircraft right before WW2 and ended up in the Luftwaffe when they were cut off from Japan).

The Ju89 had potential of sorts, but needed major redesigns to get there. A 189 using the experience and work on the Ju89 would have been just fine. The problem though is that Junkers, who designed it, was tapped to make a huge number of fast bombers, the Ju88, which absorbed their capacity to make aircraft especially given that they also made the Ju87. So they weren't really in a position to make a large four engine bomber. That's why the RLM went to Heinkel to make the Bomber A/He177 as a replacement for the aging He111, as it was intended to have excess capacity, while Dornier then made a 'heavy' multipurpose twin engine bomber, the 217.

As to maneuverability the Lancaster was actually pretty maneuverable and at night was agile enough to get out of the way of night fighters if it spotted them. The HE177 was also quite agile for it's size (even before the dive bombing requirement was added it was intended to be able to dive at a shallower angle), which meant easier handling in the air for the crew; not having that meant it would be much more exhausting for the crew to try and maintain and adjust in the air, especially during climbing and landing (nothing like stalling while trying to land), not to mention to get into formation and deal with unexpected situations where it would need to rapidly maneuver itself. Obviously it wasn't comparable to a single or twin engine aircraft in terms of maneuverability, but having the ability to be stable in the air when going through maneuvers was very important for any aircraft in combat at least according to Eric Brown, British test pilot who flew more aircraft over a longer period than maybe anyone else in history, including both British and German aircraft (he got to test out all the nifty Luftwaffe designs at the end of the war and wrote a book about it, "Wings of the Luftwaffe"). He even reported on the FW200, Ju290, and He177 and compared them to the British and American heavies. He does note that maneuverability in the air for heavy bombers isn't necessary so long as they have heavy defensive firepower to keep fighters off of them, which the militarized Ju290 did have. Apparently though the Ju290 did have better handling for rapid maneuvers to get into cloud cover in a tight spot than the Fw200 and even landed on a shorter strip than the 200.
 

JAG88

Banned
The Ju-87 was in desperate need of replacement. Its shortcomings severely hurt the luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain. Having a dive bomber / fighter bomber capable of operating in 1940 in contested airspace would have had a major effect on the Dunkirk evacuation and the Battle of Britain.
The Ju-87 was in desperate need of replacement. Its shortcomings severely hurt the luftwaffe during the Battle of Britain. Having a dive bomber / fighter bomber capable of operating in 1940 in contested airspace would have had a major effect on the Dunkirk evacuation and the Battle of Britain.

Desperate... severely hurt, really?

Earth's rotation was the first concern at Dunkirk, weather was the main, range was the third, bomb supply the 4th and the RAF a distant 5th...

The stuka did very well at the BoB, in the end it was withdrawn because it was taking losses attacking unworthy targets, it was a precision weapon used to attack targets that could be better dealt with larger level bombers. Btw, the only time they took losses is when they were caught without escort, you know, like with any other bomber...

People still buy propaganda today.
 

JAG88

Banned
I get you're joking, but he didn't really say that.

Galland tells us what the Luftwaffe needs.


"To my mind, he went about it the wrong way. He had nothing but reproach for the fighter force, and he
expressed his dissatisfaction in the harshest of terms. The theme of fighter protection was chewed over
again and again. Goring clearly represented the point of view of the bombers and demanded close and
rigid protection. The bomber, he said, was more important than record bag figures. I tried to point out
that the ME-109 was superior in the attack and not so suitable for purely defensive purposes as the
Spitfire, which although a little slower, was much more maneuverable. He rejected my objection. We
received many more harsh words. Finally as his time ran short he grew more amiable. He asked what
were the requirements for our squadrons. Mölders asked for a series of ME-109s with more powerful
engines. The request was granted. "And you?" Goring turned to me. I did not hesitate long. "I should
like an outfit of Spitfires for my squadron." After I had blurted this out, I received rather a shock. It was
not really meant that way. Of course fundamentally I preferred our ME-109 to the Spitfire. But I was
unbelievably vexed at the lack of understanding and the stubbornness with which the command gave us
orders we could not execute—or only incompletely—as a result of many shortcomings for which we
were not to blame. Such brazen-faced impudence made even Goring speechless. He stamped off,
growling as he went."
 
At work.

Am quite enjoying the thread.

Much interesting information and points of views being presented.

Just a question. Given the OP's comment of kickjng things off in 1936......

What sort of butterflies might be needed for something like the Do 335 to be thought of and/or developed?

Or is four years not enough time?

Cheers.
 
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