AHC: Taking the Royal Navy out of commission by 1941
- Thread starter Enigmajones
- Start date
Play dirty
Without a declaration of war, select a day when most RN major warships will be at harbour and use clandestine operatives to kill their crews with nerve gas
Alternatively, develop an extrmely contagious bio agent that takes a few days to kick in and contaminate a few RN sailors on each capital ship right before the war.
Or, again without a declaration of war, send a few ships on a good will visit to the major RN bases. At night unleash their secret cargo of Italian combat frogmen with their piloted torpedoes to place charges under capital ships.
Big hairy bats from a galaxy far far away.
Without a declaration of war, select a day when most RN major warships will be at harbour and use clandestine operatives to kill their crews with nerve gas
Alternatively, develop an extrmely contagious bio agent that takes a few days to kick in and contaminate a few RN sailors on each capital ship right before the war.
Or, again without a declaration of war, send a few ships on a good will visit to the major RN bases. At night unleash their secret cargo of Italian combat frogmen with their piloted torpedoes to place charges under capital ships.
Big hairy bats from a galaxy far far away.
Have a bigger Luftwaffe composed entirely of fighters and dive-bombers. Scrap the Kriegsmarine, as a navy is obsolete in the age of the airplane.
His Majesty's Occupational Health and Safety department have determined that as asbestos is used as insulation in all of the Royal navy's ships, they are unsafe to be used in any manner until this is remedied. Removal of said asbestos is also a major health and safety issue and cannot be considered at this time.
There you go.
There you go.
There was a crisis just before the outbreak of WWII, something about the British harboring Chinese rebels. Have this cooincide with the outbreak of war in Europe and you have a start.
The Royal Navy sends a powerful squadron to Singapore, but with all their obligations elsewhere, the Japanese get to fight their "decisive battle" with a moderate numerical edge and a moderate qualatative edge. (Long Lances, superior carriers, and more cheating on Treaty Limits trumps British radar) The Japanese get a second Tsushima, and the British Empire withdraws its defenses from the Far East. Things go tougher in the European theater at sea too. There's fewer ships to fight in Norway and chase down German commerce raiders.
When France falls, the French Navy actually fights off a alternate Operation Catapult, one which is less decisively executed. The OTL result of showing resolve the the US is not achieved. There's no Destroyers for Bases or similar aid. Spain joins the beat down, bombarding and sinking warships in Gibralter and giving the Axis valuable new bases. (The Royal Navy has already been sufficiently weakened to consider invading the Canaries) Vichy France cooperates more and the haggard Royal Navy suffers yet another defeat, this time at the hands of the Regia Marina.
Egypt falls by a narrow margin in early 1941, and the last straw is the sucessful breakout of the Bismark. Unable to protect even the most vital seaways of the Empire, Churchill gets the boot. The new government seeks peace terms, but the U.S.A. decides things are out of hand. The USSR is an apparent ally of Nazi Germany, Japan rules the Pacific, the Italians the Med, and France is a puppet. The threat to national security is too much for the USA. Roosevelt demands the British cede their colonies in the Western Hemisphere, and their navy disarm to avoid falling into the hands of the Nazis. This is the final blow, and by a mixture of diplomacy and force the Royal Navy is reduced to third rate status by its OTL ally.
The Royal Navy sends a powerful squadron to Singapore, but with all their obligations elsewhere, the Japanese get to fight their "decisive battle" with a moderate numerical edge and a moderate qualatative edge. (Long Lances, superior carriers, and more cheating on Treaty Limits trumps British radar) The Japanese get a second Tsushima, and the British Empire withdraws its defenses from the Far East. Things go tougher in the European theater at sea too. There's fewer ships to fight in Norway and chase down German commerce raiders.
When France falls, the French Navy actually fights off a alternate Operation Catapult, one which is less decisively executed. The OTL result of showing resolve the the US is not achieved. There's no Destroyers for Bases or similar aid. Spain joins the beat down, bombarding and sinking warships in Gibralter and giving the Axis valuable new bases. (The Royal Navy has already been sufficiently weakened to consider invading the Canaries) Vichy France cooperates more and the haggard Royal Navy suffers yet another defeat, this time at the hands of the Regia Marina.
Egypt falls by a narrow margin in early 1941, and the last straw is the sucessful breakout of the Bismark. Unable to protect even the most vital seaways of the Empire, Churchill gets the boot. The new government seeks peace terms, but the U.S.A. decides things are out of hand. The USSR is an apparent ally of Nazi Germany, Japan rules the Pacific, the Italians the Med, and France is a puppet. The threat to national security is too much for the USA. Roosevelt demands the British cede their colonies in the Western Hemisphere, and their navy disarm to avoid falling into the hands of the Nazis. This is the final blow, and by a mixture of diplomacy and force the Royal Navy is reduced to third rate status by its OTL ally.
And even that's not going to hurt the Home Fleet, which Britain will only cede under promise of annihilation. I'm also doubtful about some of the other stuff, for example, Spain doing any real damage to Force H, Spain has just fought (or is actually still fighting) a bloody civil war, they're not going to be in any position to make an aggressive move towards the Rock. Also, I'm trying to understand how you expect to get those kinds of Axis-wank results, the home fleet will not have fewer ships (unless they've been sunk) and if they're really force to retreat the Eastern Fleet will join up with the Mediterranean Fleet in Egypt and just overwhelm the Regia Marina.
A) - sucessful Sea Lion - but we know that NEVER happens
B) - Churchill trips and never becomes Prime Minister, so after the Case Yellow/Red defeat of France, UK sees no point fighting Germany (requires the Italians to stay out of the battle) as Germany is a LAND power and UK a Sea power (mainly). UK and Germany make peace, so the RN plays NO role in the following war between SU and Germany which is called (together with the Pacific war (US vs Japan - Japan seizes Phillies and DEI, but does not go after HK/Singapore - yet)) and the earlier Polish war (ended by Case Red and the following peace negotiations) WWII.
in late 1945 suceeds to convince the Truman presidency that Communism is the bigger threat nad US invades Siberia from bases in Manchuria and KMT held China. Stalin panics amd makes peace with the Germans who still hold all of pre war Poland and the Baltics (which are the price for peace).
The US get their beating by the experienced Russian troops (never have battled against a real tank force).
By 1947 all warring nations are exhausted, only UK had more than 5 years to rebuild and to a lesser degree France (which was only shortly occupied by Germany) also recovered, so those two nations were the only remaining superpowers in the 50s...
Several inconsistencies there:
1) If the US doesn't support the USSR with Lend-Lease the soviets are going to be nothing like as powerful as OTL since they'll have to make their own trucks, and buy av-gas with hard cash.
2) When did the US set up in Manchuria, and why?
3) Hitler will never make peace with Stalin post Barbarossa.
Finally, none of this leads, to my mind, to any screwing-over of the RN.
1) If the US doesn't support the USSR with Lend-Lease the soviets are going to be nothing like as powerful as OTL since they'll have to make their own trucks, and buy av-gas with hard cash.
2) When did the US set up in Manchuria, and why?
3) Hitler will never make peace with Stalin post Barbarossa.
Finally, none of this leads, to my mind, to any screwing-over of the RN.
1) thats why Germany is better off than OTL
2) after Pearl Harbour the US fought Japan without being bound by Germany first strategy
3) Russians are pushing back the Wehrmacht constantly
nothing will screw up the RN other than a Brit Government that cust resources, so being at peace (with Germany) those cuts occure sooner than OTL (all building of new halted by 1941 - reduction of personnel - money poured into Army and Airforce)
Exactly my thought as well. A lack of funds for building or even basic maintainace, much less pay crews, results in most ships being tied up to rot. On outbreak of war most have deteriorated so badly they can't be used, nor are trained crews available. No new construction and those ships available are in desperate need of a refit...
If things are that bad for the UK and the Royal Navy I would imagine the global financial environment would be just as bad for any opposing for, so they would suffer the same degradation.
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
The Germans should give up on big ships and concentrate upon subs, mines and aircraft.
IMHO the only European navy that could have taken on part of the RN's battlefleet was the Italians. So you need a POD early enough to allow the Littorio-class to be finished ahead of schedule, preferably fitted with efficient radar, along with the Regia Aeronautica having decent reconnaissance & strike assets. A KGV against a Littorio would eb a good fight to watch.
If the Germans make it quite clear to Vichy France that the French fleet is now their Mediterranean fleet, perhaps by threatening to melt down the Eiffel Tower
then you can have Richelieu, a completed Jean Bart, Strasbourg & Dunkerque to reinforce the Italians. Of course, unless you have a pool of determined French sailors prepared to go up against their old enemy, you will need to find some experienced naval personnel. I wonder how many of the old High Seas Fleet men might still be around?
With the Med diverting RN resources, the Kriegsmarine & Luftwaffe look to whittle away at the Home Fleet. Mines nearly sunk the Nelson & the Belfast, as as a previous poster commented, better torpedoes would have seen the back of several other major units, if not sunk at least in dire need to repair.
Having the Japanese rattled their swords would also help. The overt deployment of the Japanese battleline to the South China Sea - they are not needed for Pearl Harbour, after all - in late 1940 or early 1941 might see major units redeployed from Europe.
This does not cover RN - or even USN - responses, but the Royal Navy was suffering severely from strategic overstretch all war, and it would not have taken much more to have the Admiralty in deep do-do.
IMHO the only European navy that could have taken on part of the RN's battlefleet was the Italians. So you need a POD early enough to allow the Littorio-class to be finished ahead of schedule, preferably fitted with efficient radar, along with the Regia Aeronautica having decent reconnaissance & strike assets. A KGV against a Littorio would eb a good fight to watch.
If the Germans make it quite clear to Vichy France that the French fleet is now their Mediterranean fleet, perhaps by threatening to melt down the Eiffel Tower
then you can have Richelieu, a completed Jean Bart, Strasbourg & Dunkerque to reinforce the Italians. Of course, unless you have a pool of determined French sailors prepared to go up against their old enemy, you will need to find some experienced naval personnel. I wonder how many of the old High Seas Fleet men might still be around?With the Med diverting RN resources, the Kriegsmarine & Luftwaffe look to whittle away at the Home Fleet. Mines nearly sunk the Nelson & the Belfast, as as a previous poster commented, better torpedoes would have seen the back of several other major units, if not sunk at least in dire need to repair.
Having the Japanese rattled their swords would also help. The overt deployment of the Japanese battleline to the South China Sea - they are not needed for Pearl Harbour, after all - in late 1940 or early 1941 might see major units redeployed from Europe.
This does not cover RN - or even USN - responses, but the Royal Navy was suffering severely from strategic overstretch all war, and it would not have taken much more to have the Admiralty in deep do-do.
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
If you are a fan of Heydrich, it is an excellent book. If you are not a member of that exclusive club...
I posted in the media section how this book made Turtledove's most mad ideas and Conroy's repetetive modus operandi look like works of genius. To be fair, reading it is like watching a train crash - you are sure it can't get any worse, then Clarke proves you wrong on the next page.
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
Sounds like a complete Axis-wank to me.
QUOTE]
If Carlsberg did an Axis-wank...
Personally I was thinking of a more parsoniminious and isolationist government but you're probably right - if things are that tight here they're probably that tight everywhere else. OTOH totalitarian governments will find the money anyway...
The issue with that is for isolation the Royal Navy would be vital, back in the period before WW1 it was the RN that allowed Britain to have that isolation. In your situation it might be the RAF and the Army that gets run down rather than the RN, (the RAF being the youngest service, while the Army could face the cuts to prevent future European "adventures").
And that leads to bases in Manchuria, how?
They've got fewer tanks and other vehicles, and they're going to have limitations on their airforce (less av-gas)
Please don't assume the British will be stupid, if Germany goes for subs, they will respond.
You can kiss Libya good-bye then, because with all of that funding in the Marina and Aeronautica, the army is going to be stuck with infantry only. You can kiss the invasion of Greece good-bye too, and maybe even draw a stalemate in Albania.
That's if those ships are in harbour, and actually bow to such a stupid threat (melting down the tower will make enemies of the world)If the Germans make it quite clear to Vichy France that the French fleet is now their Mediterranean fleet, perhaps by threatening to melt down the Eiffel Tower
Which does nothing for Germany, who's now got the British in Norway because submarines are crap at transporting troops (if you could fit maybe 50 troops per U-Boat that would require 178 of the things to get all the troops to Norway they used OTL).
Matt II
US bases in Manchuria - logical after Japan is defeated, the US occupies not only Japan but also Korea and Manchuria
Why do all the US boys believe that Russia would collaps without LL - LL made things easier for Russia, but overall Russia had the better resources to fight a prolonged war against Germany - if germany does not knock out Russia within two (maybe 3 ) campaign seasons Russia will have built up enough to beat Germany alone. It will be a harder process than OTL, but NOT impossible.
US bases in Manchuria - logical after Japan is defeated, the US occupies not only Japan but also Korea and Manchuria
Why do all the US boys believe that Russia would collaps without LL - LL made things easier for Russia, but overall Russia had the better resources to fight a prolonged war against Germany - if germany does not knock out Russia within two (maybe 3 ) campaign seasons Russia will have built up enough to beat Germany alone. It will be a harder process than OTL, but NOT impossible.
Coulsdon Eagle
Monthly Donor
Hi,
With every decision there is an opportunity cost. A better Italian battlefleet should mean reductions in numbers of efficiency elsewhere. Although, in terms of grand strategy, with the RN ouyt of the Med, Greece & Albania will be far easier, and the pressure on Libya woudl gradually fall away
You did read to the end of my post, did you? The bit where I stated I wasn't mentioning RN or USN responses? Although the British ministries & high commands did not always cover themselves in glory, I reckon they would have at least diverted from OTL in some appropriate way. It is up to us as individuals to decide what might (not) have worked.
The Germans didn't use their battlecruisers to carry the invasion forces for Norway, just to provide distant cover. The RN failed to intercept them on the way in, but even then losses in cruisers & destroyers hamstrung the Kriegsmarine in later months. It was a tremendous gamble by the Germans that paid off.
PS -a smiley against a threat = irony or sarcasm.
With every decision there is an opportunity cost. A better Italian battlefleet should mean reductions in numbers of efficiency elsewhere. Although, in terms of grand strategy, with the RN ouyt of the Med, Greece & Albania will be far easier, and the pressure on Libya woudl gradually fall away
You did read to the end of my post, did you? The bit where I stated I wasn't mentioning RN or USN responses? Although the British ministries & high commands did not always cover themselves in glory, I reckon they would have at least diverted from OTL in some appropriate way. It is up to us as individuals to decide what might (not) have worked.
The Germans didn't use their battlecruisers to carry the invasion forces for Norway, just to provide distant cover. The RN failed to intercept them on the way in, but even then losses in cruisers & destroyers hamstrung the Kriegsmarine in later months. It was a tremendous gamble by the Germans that paid off.
PS -a smiley against a threat = irony or sarcasm.