AHC: Swap fates of Poland and Prussia

krieger

Banned
So the question is rather simple. Is it possible to swap fates of Poland and Prussia? An by swap I mean scenario, in which Prussia rises to power earlier, Poland is it's vassal for a long period of time. But Prussians fuck it up and turn in weak noble democracy, where Poland manages to win it's independence from Prussia, and becomes a centralised, absolutist state with a long tradition of militarism and manages to partition it's former overlord and to become one of main powers in Europe.
 
If we take the analogy to the logical conclusion, it would end with Prussia existing as an independent state in the present day, whereas Poland will not.
 
Perhaps in absence of Teutonic Knights in Prussia and with more devasting Mongol invasion of Central Europe Prusso-Lithuanian state conquered fragmented Polish Duchies like they conquered Ruthenia? Or at least part of Poland (Mazovia and Kuiavia), that later gets independence during the time of Lithuania's troubles and then became nucleus of reunited Poland?
 

krieger

Banned
Perhaps in absence of Teutonic Knights in Prussia and with more devasting Mongol invasion of Central Europe Prusso-Lithuanian state conquered fragmented Polish Duchies like they conquered Ruthenia? Or at least part of Poland (Mazovia and Kuiavia), that later gets independence during the time of Lithuania's troubles and then became nucleus of reunited Poland?
Yes, it's a definitely good start. Mazovian Piasts were already quite authocratic, so centralisation and militarisation wouldn't be unlikely under their yoke. But than we would need to wank this reunited Poland in order to become a major European power.
 

krieger

Banned
If we take the analogy to the logical conclusion, it would end with Prussia existing as an independent state in the present day, whereas Poland will not.
But Prussia's spawn, Germany still exists. So the logical conclusion would be existence of Polish-dominated "Western Slavia" being the richest European state.
 

Marc

Donor
Truly easy, have Napoleon completely obliterate Prussia (he seriously considered it) and build up the Grand Duchy of Warsaw as many thought he eventually would.
 
Perhaps in absence of Teutonic Knights in Prussia and with more devasting Mongol invasion of Central Europe Prusso-Lithuanian state conquered fragmented Polish Duchies like they conquered Ruthenia? Or at least part of Poland (Mazovia and Kuiavia), that later gets independence during the time of Lithuania's troubles and then became nucleus of reunited Poland?
That's what I was thinking of when I saw this thread too. Either have Poland's development delayed while the Balts unite a few centuries earlier (it might not be called Prussia, though, but for the sake of argument) and the Balts expanding to the Vistula plain, or the Teutonic Order is never invited to Prussia and the Prussians unite under one state, annexing Lithuania on the way (unlikely, but again, for the sake of argument) and expanding into Poland.

In either of those two scenarios, though, even if you might achieve a similar path of historical development during the Early Modern Era as the OP requires, it wouldn't be a very fitting switcheroo, because the origin of the two swapped states is fundamentally different. OTL Prussia is, for all intents and purposes, a "foreign" state in its region, a complete periphery of the German people established during the expansionist and colonialist Northern Crusade, and its culture and history reflect exactly that. TTL Poland, on the other hand, is merely a shrunken version of its normal self, which lost a lot of its territory to its northern neighbour but is still in the "core" of the Polish nation.

A better switcheroo then would be if the Slavic tribes which, in OTL, formed the Polish nation, never end up in the Vistula plain at all, and for some reason or another, "Poland" is a Baltic or Germanic word for the southern part region. Then, some Slavic state expanding to the region from the south invites a militaristic order to the Tatra mountains for "holy warfare purposes" or whatever, it eventually evolves into a secular "Duchy of Poland", while most of the Vistula plain is controlled by a "Kingdom of Prussia"
 
So Prussia will stay Prussian speaking and create a medium sized state in Eastern Europe and join in a union with a bigger less populated state (maybe Sweden), while Poland will be conquered by the Teutonic Knights end up German speaking and later reunite Germany?
 

krieger

Banned
That's what I was thinking of when I saw this thread too. Either have Poland's development delayed while the Balts unite a few centuries earlier (it might not be called Prussia, though, but for the sake of argument) and the Balts expanding to the Vistula plain, or the Teutonic Order is never invited to Prussia and the Prussians unite under one state, annexing Lithuania on the way (unlikely, but again, for the sake of argument) and expanding into Poland.

In either of those two scenarios, though, even if you might achieve a similar path of historical development during the Early Modern Era as the OP requires, it wouldn't be a very fitting switcheroo, because the origin of the two swapped states is fundamentally different. OTL Prussia is, for all intents and purposes, a "foreign" state in its region, a complete periphery of the German people established during the expansionist and colonialist Northern Crusade, and its culture and history reflect exactly that. TTL Poland, on the other hand, is merely a shrunken version of its normal self, which lost a lot of its territory to its northern neighbour but is still in the "core" of the Polish nation.

A better switcheroo then would be if the Slavic tribes which, in OTL, formed the Polish nation, never end up in the Vistula plain at all, and for some reason or another, "Poland" is a Baltic or Germanic word for the southern part region. Then, some Slavic state expanding to the region from the south invites a militaristic order to the Tatra mountains for "holy warfare purposes" or whatever, it eventually evolves into a secular "Duchy of Poland", while most of the Vistula plain is controlled by a "Kingdom of Prussia"

I think that delaying Poland's development is not necessary to achieve such a scenario. Prussians conquering Polish principalities fullill my wishes in one hundred percent. Annexing Lithuania, while possible is not necessary also.

You clearly misunderstood my intentions. I wanted ITTL Poland only to borrow militarism, absolutism and centralism from OTL Prussia. The fact of being core or periphery of a nation is pretty much irrelevant. However, if you want to swap literally everything, than you need to create a Western Slavic HRE-like entity (surviving Great Moravia or even Samo's state are possible candidates), which de facto collapses, while being de iure ruled by one monarch. Than, you could see a union between Baltic-aligned Duchy of "Greater Poland" with Moravia-aligned "Duchy of Lesser Poland" (the ATL counterpart of union between Brandenburg and Prussia) which achieves independence during the period of weakness of it's Baltic overlords. Eventually, it manages to grab a lot former Prussian-controlled land in partitions counterpart and dominates whole former Moravian land and ultimately creates "Second Western Slavic Empire", which is one of major European powers and challenges Britain.
 

Marc

Donor
"Poland only to borrow militarism, absolutism and centralism."

Then Poland is no longer Poland as a distinctive cultural entity.
 

krieger

Banned
"Poland only to borrow militarism, absolutism and centralism."

Then Poland is no longer Poland as a distinctive cultural entity.

Ehhh, no. In the times of Casimir III it was near becoming state like this and it was exactly Poland.
 
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