AHC: Swap Britain and Germany's Post-WW2 Roles

I understand this would be impossible to fully accomplish, but what would Europe and the wider world look like if Germany and Britain had many of their post-WW2 "traits" swapped for one another?

So for instance, Britain pulls off an "Economic Miracle" after cessation of hostilities to become the largest economy in Europe. The British economy is focused primarily on high quality exports. (West) Germany goes through similar turbulence that afflicted Britain in the 1970's, and Frankfurt is a global capital of finance on par with OTL London.

Germany is the more Eurosceptic of the two and enters into the evolving European institutions at a later date. Britain is a founding member and the one that traditionally pushes for greater integration.

As much as possible, make German foreign policy more assertive, while Britain becomes less willing to intervene outside its borders. I understand that a more economically vibrant Britain is probably going to be pushed more towards interventionism, and the same factors aren't at play for either to fully reverse on this facet. Just do the best you can.

Bonus points if Germany can take Britain's role in the Special Relationship with the USA, while Britain is more focused on European affairs.
 
This seems... complicated. A lot of those issues come from way deeper, either from before the war of even before the WWI.

So for instance, Britain pulls off an "Economic Miracle" after cessation of hostilities to become the largest economy in Europe. The British economy is focused primarily on high quality exports. (West) Germany goes through similar turbulence that afflicted Britain in the 1970's, and Frankfurt is a global capital of finance on par with OTL London.

London is the historical finance capital because money likes stability. London has never been invaded since the Normans so if you invest there, your capital is safe. Same reason the Dutch got proeminent in the XVIIth century.
The German powerhouse thing comes from two things: massive input of capital from the Marshall plan to rebuild and an historical role as an industrial powerhouse. The German miracle was Germny coming back to pre-war level+technological advances. It's easier to put new processes in place (american ones) if you have a blank slate

Germany is the more Eurosceptic of the two and enters into the evolving European institutions at a later date. Britain is a founding member and the one that traditionally pushes for greater integration.

Well, if Germany ain't in, there ain't no EU :p
The EU was created to keep new Europan wars from happening. If you take Germany out, it makes it rather useless

As much as possible, make German foreign policy more assertive, while Britain becomes less willing to intervene outside its borders. I understand that a more economically vibrant Britain is probably going to be pushed more towards interventionism, and the same factors aren't at play for either to fully reverse on this facet. Just do the best you can.

With no army it might be a bit difficult. And, if your PoD is anywhere after the war, so no Axis victory or whatnot, this is impossible. The Germans were traumatised and re-educated completely to condition them never to intervene and not to put too much emphasis on their army. After provoking the last three big European wars, everybody made sure of that. Even now, they don't intervene. In Europe, France and the UK go abroad and Germany sends a few trucks to pay lip service to the idea. And that's mrore than 70 years after the wa
 
This seems... complicated. A lot of those issues come from way deeper, either from before the war of even before the WWI.

I am fully aware of how difficult this is, which is why I both found it interested and listed it as a challenge. :p

London is the historical finance capital because money likes stability. London has never been invaded since the Normans so if you invest there, your capital is safe. Same reason the Dutch got proeminent in the XVIIth century.
The German powerhouse thing comes from two things: massive input of capital from the Marshall plan to rebuild and an historical role as an industrial powerhouse. The German miracle was Germny coming back to pre-war level+technological advances. It's easier to put new processes in place (american ones) if you have a blank slate.

Well reasoned points, and if you say "well just have Frankfurt be as important as possible" I suspect that's essentially a copy of OTL. While acknowledging it's far easier to achieve tepid British economic performance after the war and strong German economic growth, is it really completely impossible to reverse the two?

Well, if Germany ain't in, there ain't no EU :p
The EU was created to keep new Europan wars from happening. If you take Germany out, it makes it rather useless.

Fair point. You could still potentially have Germany as the less interested in full-integration, while Britain is also a founding member and assumes that Europhile perspective.

With no army it might be a bit difficult. And, if your PoD is anywhere after the war, so no Axis victory or whatnot, this is impossible. The Germans were traumatised and re-educated completely to condition them never to intervene and not to put too much emphasis on their army. After provoking the last three big European wars, everybody made sure of that. Even now, they don't intervene. In Europe, France and the UK go abroad and Germany sends a few trucks to pay lip service to the idea. And that's mrore than 70 years after the wa

This reversal did indeed seem like the most implausible and difficult to pull off, is there anyway to have a more European focused Britain that's less (not un-)concerned with global affairs?
 
it involves less marshall plan assistance for germany and more for uk after ww2

it also involves a post world war trade pact/military alliance between uk france and benelux

this results in stronger uk and more assertive uk which with France go into suez which is a bigger deal

the UK/Us relationship goes south here with USA dumping British on the market at low prices to try and bring UK into line.

UK suffers a major shock and pulls back from world affairs. As relationship with US has gone south Britain doesnt get involved with US adventures and looks more inwards and at Europe.

The US looks at Germany for a European partner and as they are on the outskirts of the European community they follow Us as they need friends.

After the USA dumps British bonds Britain is on the edge of bankrupty for a few years as they are unable to borrow cheaply from the market causing a decline in Londons financial reputation
 
I understand this would be impossible to fully accomplish, but what would Europe and the wider world look like if Germany and Britain had many of their post-WW2 "traits" swapped for one another?

So for instance, Britain pulls off an "Economic Miracle" after cessation of hostilities to become the largest economy in Europe. The British economy is focused primarily on high quality exports. (West) Germany goes through similar turbulence that afflicted Britain in the 1970's, and Frankfurt is a global capital of finance on par with OTL London.

Germany is the more Eurosceptic of the two and enters into the evolving European institutions at a later date. Britain is a founding member and the one that traditionally pushes for greater integration.

As much as possible, make German foreign policy more assertive, while Britain becomes less willing to intervene outside its borders. I understand that a more economically vibrant Britain is probably going to be pushed more towards interventionism, and the same factors aren't at play for either to fully reverse on this facet. Just do the best you can.

Bonus points if Germany can take Britain's role in the Special Relationship with the USA, while Britain is more focused on European affairs.

POD 1944 - Operation Valkyrie kills Hitler.

There is a brief civil war between the conspirators and the SS. Remarkably, the conspirators win by late August, and establish a government.

The new German government makes appeals through Sweden and directly to the WAllies for an armistice, all are rejected out of hand. Coming to the more realistic view that the best they can for Germany is to make sure the war ends as quickly as possible.

To that end, the transfer the vast majority of Germany's remaining forces to the Eastern front. The western and Italian fronts are screened - the Allies advance far more rapidly that IOTL. Meanwhile, within Germany, they focus on exposing Nazi crimes to the German public and stopping the Holocaust.

In November of 1944, with the Allies on the Rhine, the Germans launch an alt-Bulge against the Soviets near Minsk. While ultimately unsuccessful, this attack - along with less government interference in the military means that the Soviets bleed casualties while fighting a properly led German Army - that Patton storms an almost undefended Berlin in February of 1945 while the Soviets are still outside of Warsaw. By March it is over with the WAllies and Soviets meeting at the Oder.

The differing situation on the ground means a different series of late-war and post war conferences ... butterflies mean that Roosevelt lives until October of 1945 (less stress, far fewer casualties in Europe). The new German government does all it can to provide information on Soviet atrocities. The Soviet occupation of East Prussia is every bit as brutal as OTL; perhaps even more - and the Germans do all they can to endear themselves to the one force in the universe that can keep the Red Army out of the rest of Germany - the United States.

How's this as a start?
 
What about a colonial PoD? Or even a gross France wank?

After WWII, the colonialists movements are not as strong, say no Dien Bien Phu battle, or the Dien Bien Phu battle in French Indochina goes according to plan. Indochina stays French a while longer and Algeria doesn't develop in a full blown war til later as well because of it.

Where am I going with this you may ask? Well, if France keeps its Empire, it doesn't feel a need to tie itself to Germany as much through the EU as it believes that with the support of its colonies and the occupations zones, Germany is no longer a threat. Taking a bit of the Marshall plan, France also invests heavily in the French occupation zone (which I believe includes Frankfurt? Looks like it but couldn't really see). With the possibility to export to the French colonies, German industry gets well and, supported by French politic effort, Frankfurt becomes a major trading place for it.

Since the US/Soviet isn't the only big power left, Britain gets closer to France to cultivate bonds and doesn't need to rely on the US as much. But as it is not part of the French commonwealth, it needs to be more competitive than the German one.

A decade later, when the decolonialist movements pick up again, the German industry, heavily reliant on French colonial markets goes down and to compensate, feels the need to intervene (maybe in support of French counter insurgencies?) while the UK decides to focus on industry.


A bit of a weird way but that should tick your boxes :p
 
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