AHC: Surviving Latin Empire

Challenging though it is, the idea is to have a Roman Catholic State, in this case the Latin Empire, in control of Constantinople to modern day. Good Luck.
 

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Banned
Make it more tolerant of Orthodoxy, give it more support from surrounding Catholics, and have it conquer Nicea quickly (taking out Epirus and Trebizond in time) and then it wouldn't become a great difficulty.
 
Simple otl the byzantine landed aristocracy in thrace had at first been prepared to recognize latin suzerainty and to serve their new overlords, no doubt on the understanding that they retained their former possessions and their proniai.. The latins rejected the offer of accommodating the Greek magnates. Due to this the aristocracy revolted and invited Kaloyan into Thrace. So if the latin king accepts the offer by the Greek magnates no revolt occurs leading to no Kaloyan intervening with the latin empire. Then if you have the latins be tolerant of their orthodox cousins than it can survive.
 
Very difficult, for much the same reason that a surviving ERE after the 1340s is. The Latin Empire is surrounded by states that want to wipe it from the map, and it lacks much real support from the West. It rules impoverished lands, over a population that is religiously, ethnically, and culturally distinct from its leadership.

I won't go so far as to say a surviving Latin Empire is ASB, but I'd say it has about the same degree of plausibility as an ERE rebounding after 1350. That is, very little.
 
As BG said, it's very difficult.

The plunder of Constantinopolis is unbutterflying, but maybe you could just avoid the worst parts as the murdering of Orthodox clergy. Maybe by convincing Monfort to stay in the crusade as he was not really enjoying the fact to attack the city. It would really help to have the urban greek clergy more encline to work with the crusaders after a time.
On the other hand, i don't see how to make the same with the powerful cloistred clergy.

A latin victory, or even a stalemate at Adrianople is compulsatory. Maybe you could butterflmy away even the bulgarian help to thrakian lords but i don't see how.

The Latin emperors couldn't avoid the extreme feudalisation of byzantine lands, but maybe can limit its effects in the proper "imperial lands" of Thrakia and Marmara sea coastlands. Maybe by making a sort of agreement with greek lords as FIIB said, he could even take the north part of the anatolian greek empire, forcing it to relocate itself in Philadelphia.

It would obviously make him more a Latin-Byzantine empire than a 100% Latin Empire.

But I think that you need, for keeping greek and turkish states out of Egean Sea and a fortiori out of Europe, a bigger support from italian states, both military and economically.

Of course, these same strates were more encline to exploit the Latin Empire's economy, rather to support the existance of a strong state, a fortiori if it's not a puppet state or obviously a state that claim to have byzantine roots.

For that, maybe you need some of Charles d'Anjou-like figure that manage to have both Naples, Sicile and probably Albania; and to hold it. If you manage to have this and to make, not an alliance, but a communauty of interest against northern italian cities and peninsular greek states, it could work.

Of course, after some times, this southern italian kingdom would likely have lands in Greece and would likely have friction and claims on Latin Empire lands. It could push the italian to ally themselves with anatolian greeks or if it's not longer, turkish states.

For a up-to-nowadays Latin Empire, i really don't see how. It could survive more longer than OTL, or even longer than post-1261 Byzantine Empire as a balkanic-state. But it would beyond difficulty to keep it existing up to 2011.
 
A latin victory, or even a stalemate at Adrianople is compulsatory. Maybe you could butterflmy away even the bulgarian help to thrakian lords but i don't see how.


In 866 Boris I of Bulgaria opens negotiations with the Pope for conversion of the Bulgarians to the Catholic faith. The Pope wouldnt accept the Bulgarians choices for archbishop of Bulgaria, and for the level of independence they wanted. Maybe a change here create a future Bulgaria that is more amenable to the Latin Empire, maybe an ally.
The West was in need of Eastern help against the Arab attacks on Sicily,
they have to see Bulgaria go Catholic and still be willing to help.
 
In 866 Boris I of Bulgaria opens negotiations with the Pope for conversion of the Bulgarians to the Catholic faith. The Pope wouldnt accept the Bulgarians choices for archbishop of Bulgaria, and for the level of independence they wanted. Maybe a change here create a future Bulgaria that is more amenable to the Latin Empire, maybe an ally.
The West was in need of Eastern help against the Arab attacks on Sicily,
they have to see Bulgaria go Catholic and still be willing to help.

If you have a POD that far back, you change the entire situation so much that 1204 is a different world.
 
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