AHC: Successful "Mulatto"/Quadroon/Octoroon/etc. subculture in the U.S.?

"Mulatto" is offensive, I know, which is why it's in quotes. Apologies.

KyleB requested this for my upcoming 20th Century Cultural TL and out of all the ideas I received this one has given me probably the most cause for thought.

I'm envisioning a coalition of mixed race individuals developing by the '20's and becoming culturally significant by the '30's. Incorporating great minds, civil rights activists, and probably most important culturally, artists, creators, and entertainers, who espouse a "mixed-pride" ideal and see themselves as the "future race". As passionate and controversial as the Panthers and the KKK, but as productive and culturally important as the Harlem Renaissance, this movement begins more creatively in the twenties and becomes more of a vocal and impassioned front during the Depression.

Separate from both races, fighting for equality, inciting a new era of acceptance for interracial admixture, and producing a revolution of "mixed pride" media.

How is this possible with a POD no earlier than the onset of WWI and no later than 1940?

What notable people from OTL would join and identify with such a movement and how would they effect it?

And what are the effects of its existence?

NOTE: I'm trying to make the major cultural butterflies on a national and international level subtle and gradual until the 1960's, changing U.S. culture entirely by the late '70's at the latest.
 

DISSIDENT

Banned
It an interesting idea. I think to get something like that, you would need an actual militant African American civil rights movement at the time, something like what happened in the 1960s and 70s but in the 1920s. In OTL the American Indian Movement, feminism etc. all sort of came as offshoots of the civil rights movement. Also, I think the Lousiana system of discrimination of mixed race people had sort of faded by that point and was limited to Louisana itself.

To get what your looking for, I guess we could have the Harlem Renaissance, African American veterans unhappy at still being discriminated against after World War 1 and the resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s and Wilson's extensions of segregation coalesce into something more organized and aggressive, but it would need a 1920s King, Malcolm X or Stokely Carmichael to lead it and to be honest, I do not think George Washington Carver or Booker T Washington had it in them as individuals.

Get that, and the mixed race thing could come as a part of it or something influenced by it but separate like the American Indian Movement or feminism or something.

Oddly enough, it would still be J Edgar Hoover cracking down on these civil rights movements and accusing them of being communist fronts, he would just be much younger since this about the time he was getting started.
 
It an interesting idea. I think to get something like that, you would need an actual militant African American civil rights movement at the time, something like what happened in the 1960s and 70s but in the 1920s. In OTL the American Indian Movement, feminism etc. all sort of came as offshoots of the civil rights movement. Also, I think the Lousiana system of discrimination of mixed race people had sort of faded by that point and was limited to Louisana itself.

To get what your looking for, I guess we could have the Harlem Renaissance, African American veterans unhappy at still being discriminated against after World War 1 and the resurgence of the Ku Klux Klan in the 1920s and Wilson's extensions of segregation coalesce into something more organized and aggressive, but it would need a 1920s King, Malcolm X or Stokely Carmichael to lead it and to be honest, I do not think George Washington Carver or Booker T Washington had it in them as individuals.

Get that, and the mixed race thing could come as a part of it or something influenced by it but separate like the American Indian Movement or feminism or something.

Oddly enough, it would still be J Edgar Hoover cracking down on these civil rights movements and accusing them of being communist fronts, he would just be much younger since this about the time he was getting started.

Walter Francis White, maybe? He was a blonde haired, blued eyed, African-American (fractional) who led the NAACP. Maybe if he had identified as a mixed race individual and advocate he could lead such a movement.

I was thinking of having an alternate Charles W. Chesnutt work inspiring something of a clarion call for "the future race".

P. B. S. Pinchback may be another potential father of such a proto-movement.

Thoughts?

Thanks for the excellent feedback, I was worried this wouldn't go in the intended direction and we're really on the right track.

EDIT: Perhaps the other way around, i.e., have the militant African American civil rights movement grow as an offshoot of the "future race" idealists after they turn more aggressive?
 

Warsie

Banned
For some reason I can see that getting violent with darker-skinned blacks killing off the "high yeller" or "creole" elitists, as well....ummu :p

As I mentioned in the other thread, have the creole culture stay more coherent and possible grow from recruitment of former "house slaves" or light-skinned blacks see N'Awlins as a friendlier place for light-skinned lacks
 
Is there any way to title this WI without using slave trader terminology?

As I mentioned in the other thread, have the creole culture stay more coherent and possible grow from recruitment of former "house slaves" or light-skinned blacks see N'Awlins as a friendlier place for light-skinned lacks

Creole-Cajun interaction in 19th and early 20th century New Orleans was complex. A good number of Creoles were educated and employed as professionals. Many knew of, and even were friendly with, their Cajun relatives. Many Cajuns were racist, but this was not always the case. Divisions according to ethnic and racial identification were certainly different in NO rather than in Jim Crow Alabama or Mississippi. Jim Crow existed in New Orleans, but the boundaries weren't as clear-cut.

If anything, an African-American movement compatible with a wider community would start in an even more inclusive New Orleans.
 

Warsie

Banned
Is there any way to title this WI without using slave trader terminology?

Mullato is used by some Black Americans, so it isn't exactly an offensive term. Biracial (or Triracial or whatever) is the best term used here. Or "mixed" (normally used for black/white hybrids) and often an older term. Calling someone a "half-breed" or "mutt" isn't advised, even if some refer to themselves like that :p

Creole-Cajun interaction in 19th and early 20th century New Orleans was complex. A good number of Creoles were educated and employed as professionals. Many knew of, and even were friendly with, their Cajun relatives. Many Cajuns were racist, but this was not always the case. Divisions according to ethnic and racial identification were certainly different in NO rather than in Jim Crow Alabama or Mississippi. Jim Crow existed in New Orleans, but the boundaries weren't as clear-cut.

Correct. My point was that you could make it that the Creole population does not assimilate with the darker-skinned freed slaves as much as they did in OTL (as late as the 1960s in OTL there were dickish light-skinned creoles who reffered to the darker-skinned blacks as "niggers" - one white teacher was confused at this as he was trying to get the black teacher to help him with planning a school trip or something - sourced from this book Amazon Website )

Also, at late as the mid 1940s there were old creole women who only spoke French. Hmm. Isn't there still a creole sentiment in New Orleans proper? It has largely died out but there are still apparently those sorts of balls set up (cotillions and debutante balls) by rich people, though I believe the paper bag stuff died out. Anyone here familiar enough with this to explain?

If anything, an African-American movement compatible with a wider community would start in an even more inclusive New Orleans.

What would they do? Shoot all the english-speakers moving into New Orleans or lynch all the darker-skinned blacks post-civil war?

Wait, that could happen and would get nasty.

EDIT: that was a semi-joke. here's the smiley: :p

Then again there's the Brazil mode where everyone encourages "lightening up the race" (something that -did- happen in OTL black america as sentiments, see some of Zora Neale Hurston's novels)

for those unaware, my original post in here

For a stronger Mullatto population that identifies as such in the USA, either A. import/increase immigration of those types of people from Brazil, Puerto Rico or the Dominician Republic. Maybe in Miami the 'white' latinoes leave the city in the hands of mullatto latinos.

Or just make the placage practice and culture stronger in the [english-settled] south than it was OTL. Or some actions to preserve Creole culture in New Orleans to a stronger point.

There are still arguments and apparently some girls get into fights over skin color, as well as some self-segregation over skin color in OTL black america but it tends to be so low that foreigners dont notice it unless they're experienced in that field.
 
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What would they do? Shoot all the english-speakers moving into New Orleans or lynch all the darker-skinned blacks post-civil war?

Wait, that could happen and would get nasty.

Then again there's the Brazil mode where everyone encourages "lightening up the race" (something that -did- happen in OTL black america as sentiments, see some of Zora Neale Hurston's novels)

for those unaware, my original post in here

No, I wasn't thinking along the lines of the addition of more prejudice/violence to lessen prejudice/violence. Rather, the better race relations in New Orleans could've been a template for a non-violent desegregation elsewhere. However, in the 1920's that could've been ASB. New Orleans was (and is) exceptional in many respects. NO could, to a limited extent, be viewed as a more tolerant oasis in a brutal culture. However, there's no such thing as bipolarity when discussing race relations anywhere in the US.

Also, as you note, there was/(is?) internal discrimination within the black community over skin color. That cannot be changed by law, as you note with your example.

This is not my field, so perhaps I should be quiet now.
 
Is there any way to title this WI without using slave trader terminology?

Not really as I'm referring to admixtures of "white" and "black" and excluding Native American, Latino, Asians, etc. for the time being. This could get very complex by including them in this initial discussion phase and I'd like to keep it simple.

Also, IIRC I prefaced this thread with an apology, acknowledging the offensiveness of at least "Mulatto", while the "roon" suffixes are so out of date and archaic as to probably offend almost no one (myself included who is, in fact, a Roon), for example, there are plenty of threads on Moors and while this was their actual name, this was also a term used offensively with frequency.

Again, I apologize if I've offended anyone, but I didn't want to specify "black" and "white" admixture in a more confusing way than it could already be construed.

Moving forth, I'm not convinced about the New Orleans thing, myself, and I'm looking for more a revolutionary movement of "mostly whites" and "mostly blacks" who speak out for the "future race" and do keep in mind, that this is a cultural TL with gradual butterflies until the '60's and '70's.

Good thoughts so far, though. Any other ideas?
 

Warsie

Banned
No, I wasn't thinking along the lines of the addition of more prejudice/violence to lessen prejudice/violence. Rather, the better race relations in New Orleans could've been a template for a non-violent desegregation elsewhere. However, in the 1920's that could've been ASB. New Orleans was (and is) exceptional in many respects. NO could, to a limited extent, be viewed as a more tolerant oasis in a brutal culture. However, there's no such thing as bipolarity when discussing race relations anywhere in the US.

Correct. Also I was kind've joking about the violence. I noticed I did not put in the ":p" smiley so I apologize for that.

Also, as you note, there was/(is?) internal discrimination within the black community over skin color. That cannot be changed by law, as you note with your example.

Hmm One thing that might work, make there a larger importation of black slaves from Africa to increase the black slave population in the southern USA. In the southern regions, some states have like 30-40% black populations (e.g. Mississippi and Alabama I think; check the numbers) so a larger population might force the rulers to adopt a different definition of 'black' to keep themselves from being overwhelmed (see the 'blood quantum' thing where whites said 'im indian too' to steal the land)

This is not my field, so perhaps I should be quiet now.

noooooo keep talking I think you still have lots of cool things to say!
 
Hmm One thing that might work, make there a larger importation of black slaves from Africa to increase the black slave population in the southern USA. In the southern regions, some states have like 30-40% black populations (e.g. Mississippi and Alabama I think; check the numbers) so a larger population might force the rulers to adopt a different definition of 'black' to keep themselves from being overwhelmed (see the 'blood quantum' thing where whites said 'im indian too' to steal the land)



noooooo keep talking I think you still have lots of cool things to say!

Is there any way to increase the influx of African immigrants after-1900?

Also, I agree, keep talking! Good stuff!
 
It seems to me that the "one-drop rule" keeps this from being a thing. In other words, you'd need a before-1900 POD to change that particular cultural whatsit so that "mulattoes" aren't simply considered black.
 
It seems to me that the "one-drop rule" keeps this from being a thing. In other words, you'd need a before-1900 POD to change that particular cultural whatsit so that "mulattoes" aren't simply considered black.

I considered that, but then I thought that the One-drop Rule is among the more perfect impetuses for mixed people to reject such a classification. The more vocally this rejection the better.

Preferably in the 20's or 30's... ;)
 
The kinda of identity/ethnic group being described in this thread seems to be an analogy of South Africa's Coloured community, with this in mind I don't think he development of this proposed cultural group is possible without a pre C20 PoD
 
What would really be cool if this TL could get a mulatto into the White House by 2008. Oh wait, that's already happened.

BTW, I do not mean to use "mulatto" disparagingly. I caucused for Obama. Texas has open primaries, but one third of the nominating deligates are chosen in a secrative caucus. Hillary had a slight advantage in the primary, but the rest of the delegates went mostly to Obama, enough to tip Texas to Obama in the convention.
 

Warsie

Banned
Is there any way to increase the influx of African immigrants after-1900?

Given how white america was, no. It'd have to be post-1960s for that

It seems to me that the "one-drop rule" keeps this from being a thing. In other words, you'd need a before-1900 POD to change that particular cultural whatsit so that "mulattoes" aren't simply considered black.

If more blacks were imported as slaves earlier the 'passing' and one-drop thing would die quicker due to the whole 'more slaves than slavers' thing as i mentioned earlier.

EDIT: heh, they still have to use only french for the creoles in the tip of the mississippi delta. Or they did it intentionally to be nice.

EDIT 2: how old is the Plaquemines Parish creole video? Has to be 1980s as I doubt even a bumfuck local white sheriff would use the word "nigger" on public television in 2011. Or bumfuck delta fisherman, or whatnot.
 
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