AHC: Strongest Hungarian performance WWII.

Only problem with that is the Nazis did give their allies a lot of equipment, the reason they weren't giving more was lack of material for their own military.

US units weren't ever in that sort of situation ... If you've got all that extra stuff and lack enough manpower to use it, it makes a lot of sense give it to allies to use. The Germans had the opposite issue: too little stuff and too many men needing it across multiple armies. That problem only got worse from 1941 as there was mass losses of equipment in the field for European Axis armies (think Italians in Operation Compass and the Germany military itself in the winter campaign in the East). Even though production increased, it never kept up with the growth of Axis armies and losses. Despite that the Germans still equipped Hungary, Romania, Italy to a degree, and various other armies with German equipment or captured French equipment, while they themselves were having to use captured equipment in 2nd and even front line roles.

the case of Hungary and Romania is interesting, their blood feud was never settled only deferred. Germany encouraged the buildup of Romanian forces for prospective invasion of USSR but by 1944 it turned around like Frankenstein's monster and attacked them, ending the war earlier.

they would have been far better position (of course with hindsight) giving all territory up to Carpathian Mtns. to Hungary and collaborating with them to develop a decently large Hungarian air force. hand over production of HS-123 would benefit both. they delayed delivery of HE-112 again over Romania (mainly) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_112#Hungary otherwise the 123 & 112 might have been good groundwork for developing their air force. my understanding there were large number of JU-86 airframes that could also have been sent to Hungary for assembly?

(leaving aside whether they could further develop their turboprop design, which seems a good idea)
 

Deleted member 1487

But they Germans didn't give their Allies that captured gear, but sold it to them.

Selling the Hungarians old Belgian 47mm AT guns, really didn't increase the Hungarians ability to stop KV-1 tanks.
LL wasn't free either. Also KV-1s weren't known about prior to the invasion and in 1941-42 higher caliber guns were at a premium and retained for German use because they didn't have enough for their own troops.
 
LL wasn't free either. Also KV-1s weren't known about prior to the invasion and in 1941-42 higher caliber guns were at a premium and retained for German use because they didn't have enough for their own troops.

My sources that they got the Belgian 47mm and PaK 38 in 1942, when what the Soviets were fielding was well known.

Better than nothing? depends.

LL for all intensive purposes, was free. Destroy, return or pay if kept.
 

Deleted member 1487

My sources that they got the Belgian 47mm and PaK 38 in 1942, when what the Soviets were fielding was well known.

Better than nothing? depends.

LL for all intensive purposes, was free. Destroy, return or pay if kept.
The Germans were still phasing in the PAK 40 and were just getting the PAK38 in sufficient numbers...but running out of the Tungsten core ammo that made it effective against T-34s. Of course even in 1942 the Soviets were using a lot more than just T-34s and KV-1s, tanks like the T-50 which were very killable by 47mm guns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II
9500 light AFVs built by the USSR in 1942, meanwhile only 3000 T-34s and 2600 heavy AFVs. LL AFVs generally had pretty weak armor and there were left over BT-7s and T-26s from 1941 and earlier still fighting. So the majority of Soviet AFVs in 1942 were absolutely killable by 47mm AT guns. If an army like the Hungarians was only expected to meet second line Soviet forces, then it is entirely reasonable that they would survive with 47mm guns.

LL was paid for, but the US could afford to only charge 10% or less of the cost. Still, the UK was paying it off into the 2000s as I recall.
 

Ian_W

Banned
Only problem with that is the Nazis did give their allies a lot of equipment, the reason they weren't giving more was lack of material for their own military.

I realise you think just like those traitors to Germany at OKH and OKW who either were, or cooperated with, the Nazis and their racialist garbage, but read this again.

"It would have been trivial for the German Army to demobilise, say ten divisions of German troops, send the men and horses back to the civilian economy and use those weapons to bring 10 of their Allies divisions up to German standards."

By having better equipped allies, you can have a smaller German army, and therefore have more people making food and hay and all that other stuff you need to actually win the war.
 

Deleted member 1487

I realise you think just like those traitors to Germany at OKH and OKW who either were, or cooperated with, the Nazis and their racialist garbage, but read this again.

"It would have been trivial for the German Army to demobilise, say ten divisions of German troops, send the men and horses back to the civilian economy and use those weapons to bring 10 of their Allies divisions up to German standards."

By having better equipped allies, you can have a smaller German army, and therefore have more people making food and hay and all that other stuff you need to actually win the war.
Funny. :rolleyes:
In fact in 1942 it really was not possible to cut down on numbers of troops given the frontage being defended in that period and hope to actually have any viability holding the line, especially given the motivation and training quality of the troops in question. Having more Romanian troops well equipped and ten less German divisions does not really create a safe situation at the front, as that leaves the Axis with the equivalent of 1 army less at the front. I get that this sort of real world zero sum situation is difficult for you to comprehend, but rational choices were being made at the time given the very serious issues of having too much frontage (and too many fronts) and not enough manpower to cover it all. There wasn't enough equipment AND manpower and having 10 more German divisions was worth a lot more than a better equipped Romanian or Hungarian army. As it was thanks to the Soviets outnumbering the Axis forces in the East all on their own the US could keep their army to 100 divisions and raise luxury non-American minor allied divisions. The Soviets spent the blood while the Americans specialized in mass production of high quality equipment and supplied resources, while the Germans had to be the primary production source AND source of combat divisions for their side all while being outnumbered by just one of the the major Allied powers.
 
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By having better equipped allies, you can have a smaller German army, and therefore have more people making food and hay and all that other stuff you need to actually win the war.

But what will all the 'Guest Workers' do for the Reich then? Got to keep those slaves..er 'Guests' working.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
This. Heck just dump captured Soviet equipment on them. Was better than what they had. The Romanians shouldn't have had 37 and 45 mm AT guns at Stalingrad. They should have had 75mm re purposed artillery. T34s too

Pretty sure the Germans diverted this stuff to the German Army. Read a book a couple decades back by a very high ranking Romanian leader. The heavier weapons did not go to the Romanians until they threatened to leave the war.

To make Hungary or any other lesser power have better weapon, IMO, you have to increase domestic weapon production before 1940.
 
The heavier weapons did not go to the Romanians until they threatened to leave the war.

To make Hungary or any other lesser power have better weapon, IMO, you have to increase domestic weapon production before 1940.

the option exists for Germany to try and arm fewer lesser powers? frankly that would only impact invasion of USSR, and maybe not entirely negatively.
 
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