AHC: Strongest Hungarian performance WWII.

FBKampfer

Banned
So of Germany's continental allies, it seems the Hungarians were the most capable overall.

The Italians had some potential, but were mired with organizational failures, while the Romanians and Finns lacked manpower and industrial capacity.

So, with a POD no earlier than 4 June, 1920, what's the strongest performance the Hungarians could have given for the Axis.

Bonus points:
Seperate TOE retained, shared calibers allowed.

Viable production of a "domestic" medium tank by June 1942.

Hungarian units not subordinated to German commanders (Hungarian formations may be taken for multinational armies or army groups, but as much as possible, her participation is to be one of cooperation, not subordination).

Does not pull an Italy or Romania.



Additional notes: Hungary-wanking allowed within reasonable limits.

Politicians may be made partial to lead paint lattes, but may not have drastic changes to personalities or temperaments.
 
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1936 Disappointed with the old Fiat-3000 and new Italian CV-33 Tankettes, Hungary purchases the license for the Swedish Stridsvagn L-60, the best prewar light tank that almost nobody knows about.
Stridsvagn_M40.jpg
at this time, was an 8 ton tank of mostly welded construction with a 20mm Madson autocannon, 15mm armor and 160hp engine with 30mph top speed. 3 man crew. Most important, was the first use of torsion bars in a production tank

This was done OTL in 1938, so we are a bit in advance to work out the reliability issues, and earlier upgunning when the Czech LT-35 details become apparent, as the Czechs were thought to be the main opponents in the interwar era

OTL this meant a 40mm Bofors derivative and 40mm armor in 1942, but here, for whatever reason say the Czechs, the Hungarians decide to do this before the war rather than waiting and finding out what a tough customer the KV-1 tank the Toldi light tank was in Toldi III form in 1939, and the Ganz Factory in Budepest gets order for far more than OTL

While the Light tanks are being made, thought is given to make a 20 ton Medium version, the L-60 scaled up, so the Turan will be based on this, rather than OTL based on the LT-35 , and be starting production in 1940
 

Ian_W

Banned
Have a German realisation that equipping their allies to German standards will mean you need less German divisions and can therefore release men and horses back into the civilian economy.

This may be ASB, however.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Have a German realisation that equipping their allies to German standards will mean you need less German divisions and can therefore release men and horses back into the civilian economy.

This may be ASB, however.


Its my understanding they needed the listening money to keep their economy rolling.

But I'd allow dirt cheap licenses on the 109, which the Hungarians built OTL. Or at least allow them to keep producing the latest version, instead of the G6 until production shut down.
 

elkarlo

Banned
Have a German realisation that equipping their allies to German standards will mean you need less German divisions and can therefore release men and horses back into the civilian economy.

This may be ASB, however.
This. Heck just dump captured Soviet equipment on them. Was better than what they had. The Romanians shouldn't have had 37 and 45 mm AT guns at Stalingrad. They should have had 75mm re purposed artillery. T34s too
 

FBKampfer

Banned
The German's smaller Allies were surprisingly capable of producing their own weapons.

The Romanians had their own indigenous fighter that was surprisingly good, they had their own indigenous 75mm antitank gun, the Hungarians produced Me 210's and 109's in good quantity for their airforce, and built a useful number of tanks, albeit of obsolete models.


I think the trick is getting things going early enough, and in the right direction.
 
Have a German realisation that equipping their allies to German standards will mean you need less German divisions and can therefore release men and horses back into the civilian economy.

This may be ASB, however.

two observations, they sent a lot of equipment to Spain during the civil war and bartered a lot to KMT China during the '30's. second they were trying to buy favor with half dozen putative allies when maybe they should have chosen a couple or more to arm as you suggest?

Hungary and ?? Finland, if they would have joined Axis?
 
the Hungarian air force received Italian CR.42 biplanes starting in 1938, possible they could have received the German HS-123 along with the manufacturing equipment instead.

both designs were dated but would have worked well in the Balkans and later USSR? Germans got caught short when they needed more but production equipment had been scrapped?
 
the Hungarian air force received Italian CR.42 biplanes starting in 1938, possible they could have received the German HS-123 along with the manufacturing equipment instead.

both designs were dated but would have worked well in the Balkans and later USSR? Germans got caught short when they needed more but production equipment had been scrapped?

Rather than the Me-210, get help finishing this heavy fighter instead, the Vargas RMI-1
503px-Varga.svg.png

That had a near working Turboprop engines.
 
the Hungarian air force received Italian CR.42 biplanes starting in 1938, possible they could have received the German HS-123 along with the manufacturing equipment instead.

both designs were dated but would have worked well in the Balkans and later USSR? Germans got caught short when they needed more but production equipment had been scrapped?

Rather than the Me-210, get help finishing this heavy fighter instead, the Vargas RMI-1
503px-Varga.svg.png

That had a near working Turboprop engines.

do not disagree with your idea but possibly the handing off of 210 to Hungary was only meant to be interim project to quickly arm them? maybe it would have been possible to continue the engine project at least?
 
do not disagree with your idea but possibly the handing off of 210 to Hungary was only meant to be interim project to quickly arm them? maybe it would have been possible to continue the engine project at least?

At the point the 210 was sold to them, it was known to be a turd of an aircraft, needing to be the 410 to get a usable aircraft

Would the Vargas been worse than the Messerschmidt? Maybe, but the 210 was known to be a dud. the RMI-1 still had to roll the dice to find that out
 
do not disagree with your idea but possibly the handing off of 210 to Hungary was only meant to be interim project to quickly arm them? maybe it would have been possible to continue the engine project at least?

Would the Vargas been worse than the Messerschmidt? Maybe, but the 210 was known to be a dud. the RMI-1 still had to roll the dice to find that out

believe some of what transpired goes back to my earlier post, Germany was attempting (very haphazardly) to buy favor with half dozen allies, while they were short of nearly every resource and weapon? (now why didn't they just offer the proven 110 aircraft?)

DO think the failure to develop the engine was the bigger mistake. but would like to know if that particular engine offered the same advantage of using lesser fuels as the early German jets?

it seems the logical thing to do to offer proven 110 airframe and DB-605 engine, and the Hungarians could have replaced aircraft and/or engine with their own design(s)?
 

Ian_W

Banned
two observations, they sent a lot of equipment to Spain during the civil war and bartered a lot to KMT China during the '30's. second they were trying to buy favor with half dozen putative allies when maybe they should have chosen a couple or more to arm as you suggest?

Hungary and ?? Finland, if they would have joined Axis?

Briefly, look at the performance of the Brazillian army in Italy to see what you can do with allies that don't treat their allies like shit.

However, the Nazi racialist ideology meant that giving "lesser races" better armaments wasn't something the German Army was interested in doing.

What this meant is that their allies troops weren't able to fight the enemy on even terms, which led to poor performance in the field (*).

Arming your allies so they can fight isnt about buying favour - the fact you're in the field with them shows you have that.

It's about making them useful.

And that's the key problem to solve.

It would have been trivial for the German Army to demobilise, say ten divisions of German troops, send the men and horses back to the civilian economy and use those weapons to bring 10 of their Allies divisions up to German standards.

But they didn't do it because they didn't want to.

(*) Although note that German infantry faced with overwhelming amount of enemy armour and no meaningful support collapsed in Bagration in mid-1944 the same way Rumanian infantry collapsed on the flank at Stalingrad in late 1942.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
The Me 210's were basically fixed to Me 410's. In fact the Me 410 was little more than a 210 model under a different name to get rid of the negative stigma.
 
The Me 210's were basically fixed to Me 410's. In fact the Me 410 was little more than a 210 model under a different name to get rid of the negative stigma.

first flew on 5 September 1939, took til mid'42 to get rid of all the major handling and stability problems. New Wing, new tail and multiple lengthening of the fuselage

And the -410 was no world beater, either, by time it was flying in 1943: it was meat for P-47 and P-51
 

FBKampfer

Banned
Well the 210 and 410 were never meant to fight them.

The plan was, much as in 43, to hit them once the escorts peeled off.


They were designed to carry heavy stand-off weapons to the bomber streams, and maul them.


Again going to lean on my decade of simulation experience. Against unescorted bombers, they're world beaters.

Firing rearward against an approaching aircraft, a .50 BMG can reach out to 1200yds as a maximum effective range. Theoretically out to around 1400yds, but that's really getting into golden bullet territory.

But a BK 5 with telescopic sight..... Granted nobody was flying them for 8 years in real life, but 2200yds wasn't a ludicrous range.

And with 27 rounds, you have 27 dead bombers.

And that's not even getting to the WGr 21's. Holy shit, a squadron of Me 410's firing 4 each does some ugly things to a bomber formation.


But this also plays into the heavy gunned 190A8's, which were really too small to lug around 30mm's and extra armor plate. The late A's were already dogs as it was.

When given command of German air defenses for scenarios, we found it most effective to actually send in the specialized point interceptors, such as the G6/As's and K4's, in a few miles ahead of the bomber destroyers.

The interceptors could tangle with anything but a Spit 14 or later P-47's up to around 30k. And once the fighters had bled their energy and altitude, two Gruppe of 190A8's would fly head on down the length of the bomber stream.


On good runs, we could inflict 60% losses on the first pass. Though again, literal decades of experience is something that's bound to affect the outcome.


But that's neither here nor there. The Hungarian 210's weren't used in the defense of Germany.
 
Hungary didn't need a 'fixed' 210 that really was only any good at shooting at bomber boxes that were without fighter escort: that was a German problem, not Hungarian

The needed ground attack and air superiority
 

Deleted member 1487

Briefly, look at the performance of the Brazillian army in Italy to see what you can do with allies that don't treat their allies like shit.

However, the Nazi racialist ideology meant that giving "lesser races" better armaments wasn't something the German Army was interested in doing.
Only problem with that is the Nazis did give their allies a lot of equipment, the reason they weren't giving more was lack of material for their own military. Recently I was reading some veteran accounts of WW2 and one got into the post-war life of a German soldier who had emigrated to America; he went to a WW2 reenactment and when reviewing the reenactors portraying a German unit remarked on how they were the most well equipped German unit he ever experienced; his experience in the war was that German troops were chronically underequipped compared to TOE and he never saw things they portrayed like camo.
US units weren't ever in that sort of situation, so could equip the British, French, Soviet, and a slew of minor allied armies plus have too much equipment filling up depots so cut production in 1944 as a result. If you've got all that extra stuff and lack enough manpower to use it, it makes a lot of sense give it to allies to use. The Germans had the opposite issue: too little stuff and too many men needing it across multiple armies. That problem only got worse from 1941 as there was mass losses of equipment in the field for European Axis armies (think Italians in Operation Compass and the Germany military itself in the winter campaign in the East). Even though production increased, it never kept up with the growth of Axis armies and losses. Despite that the Germans still equipped Hungary, Romania, Italy to a degree, and various other armies with German equipment or captured French equipment, while they themselves were having to use captured equipment in 2nd and even front line roles.
 
Despite that the Germans still equipped Hungary, Romania, Italy to a degree, and various other armies with German equipment or captured French equipment, while they themselves were having to use captured equipment in 2nd and even front line roles.

But they Germans didn't give their Allies that captured gear, but sold it to them.

Selling the Hungarians old Belgian 47mm AT guns, really didn't increase the Hungarians ability to stop KV-1 tanks.
 
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