AHC: Strong post-war Royal Navy?

[Riain]

I agree. I was just looking for a way for the finessed tactical unit to not be dependent on operating with allies with the Centaur's operating alongside the CVA's instead of the proposed helicopter escort cruisers.

Yes, I understand, and that was pretty much the 1966 plan, to run the carriers until the mid-late 70s with the EoS withdrawal in 1975. However the pound was devalued in November 1967 and this plan was chopped in January 1968, the Victorious was decommissioned immediately and EoS was bought forward to 1971.

However even if the 1966 plan survived the RN would have been without fleet carriers by 1980 or before, and thus cannot be considered to be a 'strong' navy. CVA 01 and 02 need to be built to maintain RN front rank combat power beyond 1978, and if this is to get past the government the RN will have to make some concessions and compromises in its tactical expectations to make a 3 ship carrier fleet possible.

 

[alspug]

I have been looking into RN SAM development and frankly they had a winner . What was missed was magazine size and ability to put a honking big booster on the Sea Dart . The Sea Dart was a great Missile for one reason above all others , it was a ramjet and could be powered for a larger proportion of it's flight . If a booster was fitted to get it to say 50,000 ft and 20 miles downrange before ramjet takes over what sort of range are you looking at . I would assume instead of a range of 40nm for mod 1 this could be 60 nm and for the mod two that had a range of 80nm you could be looking at well over 100nm . This makes for a formidable capability for convoy escorting and Bear killing . A 17 inch diameter missile would allow for an active seeker possibly borrowed from the Aim-54 program to be fitted . This would allow very long range shots with no need for terminal guidance . Midcourse would of course be needed . The Type 42 would need to be stretched to allow this to be done however a 40 rd missile magazine with those capability's would be awesome .

 

[Zen9]

Absolute range is not the same as effective range 45nm is quoted for the original Sea Dart, but it's high altitude effective range is about 30,000yards or around 15nm.

But in theory. ....
It's not that different in size from Typhon LR bar the booster.
Though materials are cheaper/lower cost.

Conceptually therefore a longer ranged version would consist of better materials, optimisation for mach 5 and a bigger booster.

 

[Zen9]

Originally the long range strike component was 57 aircraft but it was raised to 64 to reduce overall numbers.

Breakdown of TAU
Long range strike 57
Short range strike 18
Fighters 32
8 AEW

So it's possible to offload the Short Range strike component to Commonwealth CV decks.
While that might raise overall numbers those for the main CV reduce

 

[Riain]

Originally the long range strike component was 57 aircraft but it was raised to 64 to reduce overall numbers.

Breakdown of TAU
Long range strike 57
Short range strike 18
Fighters 32
8 AEW

So it's possible to offload the Short Range strike component to Commonwealth CV decks.
While that might raise overall numbers those for the main CV reduce

The RN can't afford that TAU on their own EoS and the same with the USN in the north Atlantic as it means 4 1/2 carriers and 3 CVWs. What they can afford is the TAU with the USN in the north Atlantic and a much reduced but still more than a single CVA TAU elsewhere. That's 2 CVWs and 3 carriers, they already have the aircraft for the 2 CVWs and 1 of the 3 carriers.

 

[Zen9]

CVW?

 

[Riain]

Carrier (Air) Wing.

 

[Riain]

The RN bought 50 Phantoms with options for 7 more, enough for 2 afloat sqns, a training/HQ sqn and a trials unit. They had about 80 Buccaneers, about 3 or 4 afloat sqns, training/HQ sqn and trials unit.

 

[Zen9]

I think the order was something like 120-140 aircraft, but the RAF got a number of them.
It was supposedly a surprise when they arrived in RAF colours!

 

[Riain]

I think the order was something like 120-140 aircraft, but the RAF got a number of them.
It was supposedly a surprise when they arrived in RAF colours!

It started as 143, went to 110 and then 50, in the end the RAF got 20 of the 50.

 

[Zen9]

Deeper. ...
Close support 18
Long range strike 15
Counter Air 30
Recce/landing support 12

 

[StevoJH]

If more F4's are substituted for Buccaneers does that reduce the numbers needed? Do you know if the requirement comes from needing to generate a specific number of sorties per day of each type? Or the ability to launch a flight group of a specified size at a single time?

Aka. Can a reduced number of airframes that are capable of carrying out multiple of the required tasks still meet the requirement?

 

[Zen9]

I think it's more about the availability of aircraft.
30 aircraft assumes 20 are actually available.
So obviously if the availability rate rises the total would fall.

The dangers of multirole-ism is you actually work the aircraft harder and increase the maintenance time each needs.

Assumed success rate was 50%...
30 daily long range strikes
60 counter air

So in theory increasing the success rate could cut sortie numbers and in turn aircraft.

Combine the two improvements and real reductions could be achieved.

 

[Riain]

If more F4's are substituted for Buccaneers does that reduce the numbers needed? Do you know if the requirement comes from needing to generate a specific number of sorties per day of each type? Or the ability to launch a flight group of a specified size at a single time?

Aka. Can a reduced number of airframes that are capable of carrying out multiple of the required tasks still meet the requirement?

After the cancellation of NIGS it was assumed that the fleet would be defended by CAP fighters, and the maintain the required CAP each carrier would need 18 fighters, so with the standard tactical unit of 2 carriers thats 36 fighters. The other option was DLI which only required 12 fighter per carrier.

The numbers were worked out using various assumptions for threats and various ways to deal with them.

No it was 18 on a single CV.
But 32 on a pair.
Assuming a 4 hour CAP.

The RN was all about strike so would have preferred the DLI option and had 24 buccaneers, however CVA01 was large enough to carry sufficient phantoms for the CAP requirement. If 1 CVA can do the CAP requirement but the RN is unhappy with the loss of 6 Buccaneers for strike then having 8 Skyhawks on the HMAS Melbourne would mitigate this loss. The RN has to accept this compromise and the Government has to accept the argument that its allies give it options. I think the government can be pursuaded, EoS was popular enough with the electorate if it could be done at a reasonable price.

 

[Zen9]

Err no....
DLI was not exclusive but part of a system of air defense.
Thus in the 50's the planned "irreducible number" was:-
12 FAW
12 F (DLI)
4 AEW
And 2 Search And Rescue.

This is why they planned to replace the Scimitar F1 with the F.177 mixed power plant fighter, while they wanted Red Hebe for the Sea Vixen or Type 556.

So removing DLI cut the fighter component by 50% assuming that SAMs would fullfill the mission instead.
This left the FAW longer ranged component, and thus is why they started looking to extend endurance on the next generation aircraft.

Because a 4 hour CAP fighter would cut fighter numbers further and sustain defence from a carrier operating far from friendly airbases.

Which is not to say you're not right. That a compromise on relying on a Commonwealth partner is one way through the impasse

 

[Zen9]

So a passable refinement here is passing the short range strike missions to a Commonwealth partner. A need for 18 aircraft, though if a higher a availability machine might cut this to 15.

Another solution is PGMs, whether we're talking about Martel, or LGBs or say the Tychon family of glide weapons Bristol proposed. Upping the potential success rate and cutting sortie numbers.
If PGMs take us to 75% success we only need 25% more than targeted for attack so instead of 30 Counter Air strikes needing 60 sorties, we'd only need 45 sorties.
This means not 20 aircraft available but 15
And to ensure that. You need only 23 aircraft in total assuming you add 50% to get the last third.
But if your availability was 75% then you only need to add 4 to get 19 in total.
So PGMs plus higher availability takes you from 30 aircraft in the TAU to 19.

Much like advanced fighters could cut fighter numbers from 32 to 12.....this must almost certainly be the ability to engage multiple targets simultaneously....as per the F14 or earlier TFX F111.

But a more reasonable system might halve fighter numbers to 16.

Consequently we can see an alternative TAU needing
13 Long Range Strike
15 Short Range Strike
19 Counter Air
16 Fighters
5 AEW
Totaling 71 aircraft almost low enough to fit on one CV!
But definitely possible if the Commonwealth partner provides that 15 aircraft on their CV.

 

[Riain]

I thought I saw reference to DLI well past the cancellation of the SR177, well into the P1154 years and maybe in conjunction with the Sea Dart requirements definition context. Certainly by the early 60s planning for the late 60s DLI didn't have to be done by a highly specialized aircraft like the Lightning or SR177.

 

[Zen9]

Well they tried to get rid of DLI, but the irony is that DAW told the Admiralty as early as '58, that missiles couldn't cover the role as they hoped.
Nevertheless this stuck in their thinking for years after '57.

Where it certainly re-exerts it's pull is in talk about anti-fleet-shadowers interception.

 

[Riain]

Tychon family of glide weapons Bristol proposed.

Care to elaborate?

As for others, AS30 was in service from the early 60s and the Martel development started in 1964.

 

[Zen9]

Bristol worked on a development of the glide bomb that had started during the 50's for a nuclear store.

They used the same wing arrangement applied to smaller conventional bombs and proposed fitting different guidance packages. TV and a radar seeker for anti-radar and I think even a laser seeker....though that might be too early.
I've even read a variant was compatible with the Sea Slug launcher. ...presumably boosted by rockets.