AHC: Strasserist/Rohmist Germany Vs. Clericofascist Italy and Austria?

Here's a little alternate history challenge for you guys: Have a Strasserist/Rohmist/miscellaneous more socialist Nazis be in a geopolitical struggle, wether purely diplomatically or eventually, through war, with more conservative, fully clericofascist regimes in Italy and Austria? An ATL where the two main strands of fascism have a chance to face off would be interesting.

Bonus points if you have the Soviet Union significantly supporting Germany, or an Allied power significantly supporting Italy. Double bonus points for both at the same time.

Quadruple bonus points if this rivalry becomes the basis for the entire European alliance system, presumably with Italy, the Allies, and the Little Entente facing off against the Soviets & Germany, but please surprise me on this.

And finally,

Infinity bonus points for turning this into a HOIV mod.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Given this site's WWII fetish, I'm surprised this has attracted no interest yet. Bumping...
First :
they are all too busy in the ... other fetish threads :D

Second :
Strasserist/Rohmist/miscellaneous more socialist Nazis
IMHO impossible to achieve - wihtout a Hitler that is not Hitler;) ... esp. if you're talking about Otto Strasser and not Gregor Strasser, who changed well into kind of opportunism/realism from 1930 on.
 
First :
they are all too busy in the ... other fetish threads :D

Second :IMHO impossible to achieve - wihtout a Hitler that is not Hitler;) ... esp. if you're talking about Otto Strasser and not Gregor Strasser, who changed well into kind of opportunism/realism from 1930 on.

This is alternate history we're talking about here. Hitler could be a unicyclist in Polynesia, for all we know.
 
First :
they are all too busy in the ... other fetish threads :D

Second :IMHO impossible to achieve - wihtout a Hitler that is not Hitler;) ... esp. if you're talking about Otto Strasser and not Gregor Strasser, who changed well into kind of opportunism/realism from 1930 on.

More seriously, we could just have the Night of the Long Knives fail, swiftly succeeded by a Rohmist putsch. Still implausible, but not impossible.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
This is alternate history we're talking about here. Hitler could be a unicyclist in Polynesia, for all we know.
Yeah, alternate history, ... posibilities exploitet around plausibility and feasability of factors existing OTL.
But ...
what you propose, a leftish german fascist regime without Hitler that lasts long enough to get the chance to face off and oppose - at least partially successfull - another fascist 'block' as Italy-Austria (that existed OTL) is imo ASB.
 
Yeah, alternate history, ... posibilities exploitet around plausibility and feasability of factors existing OTL.
But ...
what you propose, a leftish german fascist regime without Hitler that lasts long enough to get the chance to face off and oppose - at least partially successfull - another fascist 'block' as Italy-Austria (that existed OTL) is imo ASB.

Why, exactly, in addition to either getting Hitler out of the way or changing his views (which I admit is a major hurdle).
 

NoMommsen

Donor
THE big contribution of Hitler to the ultra-right, the völkisch antisemitism they all came from, was his charisma.
Due to this charisma they all followed him - and nobody else. It was his personality, that integrated all these mini to micro groups to a little bigger mini group that became the NSDAP of 1930.

Without such an integrating person - or its sudden vanishing - the first what all these mini-Hitlers were trying to do is to kill each others. And I don't see any person, that could have fought of this desintegration. Especially not Röhm or Otto Strasser.
The leftish Nazi-groups, that were there, were more busy with fighting each other than fighting the 'Hitler'-part of the party or even other political enemies.

Also, a BIG factor of the Nazis comming to power was their hate-love with the 'old' establishment. I know well, that i.e. Schleicher hoped to break them apart with the help of Otto Strasser, but he quite quickly abandoned this plan seeing that he wouldn't have any support of the Nazis main force to speak off.

Röhm ! Beside lacking the wits to deal with politicians properly just freightened the shit out of the establishment esp. the Reichswehr. They would never had cooperated with him. He neither:rolleyes:.
All he knew was how to organize fighting troops on a tactical base. He had no idea of how to get a country running - and he cared less about such probs than Hitler.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
... gave it some thoughts ...
You would have to remove Hitler at some point (if you don't create a "Notler"). Questions of how : ... there are enough by Hitler frustrated/dissapointed right-wingers around, who could be talked into doing something "stupid", maybe with some Erhardts-OC background (at the time I'll come to he just came back to germany, trying to "build-up" somehting new secretly).
More important IMO the question of "when".

My best bet would be soemwhere around late 1930 to spring 1931. Maybe midth November 1930
The NSDAP had alraedy their first landslide election victory ... and nothing makes a party more attractive than victory despite whatever or how confused its program might be, as proven later by the NSDAP. From then on Hitlers "charisma" was even more important to hold the party together, than it was needed for propaganda. IOTL after that victory he did only very few campaigning personally. Therefore less needed to get the party raising further.

At that time Gregor Strasser was most powerfull man of the party, second only to Hitler ... due to the latters "charisma" of holding all the "smaller" hitlers together ... and letting them obey Gregor Strasser. But this "fronde" against Hitler had little power of their own.
Goering held only more or less 'honorably' functions in the SA-structure at that time.
Roehm, had just returned from south america and not yet put himself in charge of things of the SA (these, esp. the "Stennes"-revolts were mainly dealt with by Paul Schulz (or "Feme-Schulz", the one organizing the former "Black Reichswehr", very close to Gregor Strasser, even his deputy).
Goebbels was by party structure even submitted to Gregor Strasser.
Himmler was at this time a nonnity in the party.

So :
Hitler gets killed by some obscure other right-wingers. Himmler gets blamed for, perhaps even killed - he was responsible for one thing only : Hitlers security.
Great upheaval in the party, sprerading out into the SA => Gregor Strasser gets the party back inline, Paul Schulz the SA. Their position (esp. as they control the parties money chests) becomes even stronger, at least stronger than everybody else.
Goering - esp. - and Goebbels goes where the power is.
Some of the "old comrades" of Muinich-times and die-hard racist Hitlerist (like Julius Streiche i.e.) get thrown out. Dwindle in an ever increasing number of sectarian "parties". Roehm, without Hitler as well a nonnity will try to get back to his "Freikorps"-firends, trying to reanimated this "dead-horse"-concept ... and fail.
The SA will be "hold" on its status as the street-fighter-propaganda-political arm of the party. It will still rise but not poured into the "quasi-army" form as Roehm did.
So :
First elections under "new management" : Bremen 30.09.1930 WIN ! maybe not the 25% of OTL buth 20% are still VAST for a party formerly not present at all. The same goes for Danzig with around 13-15%, only a blink of an eye below catholic Center-party.
Second Stennes-revolte of 1931 ... doesn't happen. Strasser's too clever not to give in at least some of their demands prior and during the settlement of the First Stennes-revolte of 1930.
First elections "won" gives further drive for 1931 :
Schaumburg-Lippe 03.05.1931, Oldenburg 17.05.1931 the Hessian 15.11.1931

With - again - a shift more towards "Volksgemeinschaft" in propaganda the party tilts slowly more to the left in general tune but in front of industrie feature the "war economy" and firther teachings of Rathenau on that matter.
Therefore they "suck-up" liberals and center-parties (not THE Center-party aka catholics, more on DNVP, DDP, DVP) and even "rightish" SPD.
Strasser and his party become even more eligible ... as well as coalitionable and govermental.

... to be continued.

EDIT : some additional electiondates
 
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I've actually always been fascinated with Strasser's Germany, and the different path National Socialism could have taken

This adds the terrifying idea that National Socialist Germany and Bolshevik Russia teaming up to utterly WRECK the WAllies (if the U.S. never joins the European war).
 
I've actually always been fascinated with Strasser's Germany, and the different path National Socialism could have taken

This adds the terrifying idea that National Socialist Germany and Bolshevik Russia teaming up to utterly WRECK the WAllies (if the U.S. never joins the European war).
Yeah, but Germany would also potentially have Italy as an adversary, since Strasser was far more left-aligned than Hitler. I know this sounds crazy, but Germany would have even more enemies than OTL. And a BRUTAL war would ensue if Germany and Russia teamed up against the fascist countries (like Spain and Italy) and the democratic countries (like Britain and France).

Also, it's a little bizarre of the different ideas that spawn out of certain people replacing Hitler. First there's Weber, then there's Wagner, I'm currently brewing up Streicher's, and now Strasser! This seems to be quite the growing trend..., and I love it!
 

NoMommsen

Donor
Strasser and his party become even more eligible ... as well as coalitionable and govermental.

... to be continued.
In 1931 we then might see the rising of "Länder"-goverments including the NSDAP. Maybe as early as spring 1931 in Danzig ... together with the Nationalists and the catholic Center ... being the first "blueprint" of what will/might take place in Hessian later that year (given the "Boxheim-documents" affair is likely butterflied away (no infight between Werner Best and Wilhelm Schäferm the duy who "betrayed" the party in delivering the documents to the SPD minister of the interior).

All this supported - in a way - by Brüning, whos is looking for rightish allies to please the Old Fieldmarschall.
Already in 1930 Brüning tried to cut a deal with Hitler, as well as in autumn 1931. Its content (roughly) :
the NSDAP gots kind of a "free hand" in fighting off the "reds" (SPD and KPD) as well as some critisism of the actual goverment, giving Brüning the opportunity to press the financial schemes he had in mind for his plan to end reparations (and to revert the ToV generally piece by piece). Also they should not intervene in foreign politics. It should have been kind of an "informal" coalition of Brüning with Hitler, giving Brüning the foreign policy and Hitler (mainly) the domestic policy ... for keeping leftists at bay.
Gregor Strasser was much more prepared to cut this deal than Hitler and most likely would do so ITTL. However, even if he wants to "reaim" more heavily against Brüning ... how should the latter stop him ?

Comes in late 1931 also the question of the Reichspresidentship. Btw : Hindenburg, who once also met Strasser was quite favorable about the latter, at least much more than of Hitler. Strasser knews, that he hasn't anyone at hands with Hitlers charisma, who might have a chance in a race against Hindenburg. So he deals with Brüning also on that. Though even with the NSDAP backing Brüning, wiht the SPD now becoming more and more alienated to Brüning, there is no way for a constitutional change to elongate Hindenburgs term, as it was the first try of Brüning.
I could see a deal along these lines :
  • NSDAP/Strasser support Hindenburg in a run for reelection (getting Hindenburg to comply would be much easier than OTL : not to have to rely on the hated "reds" (SPD), beind supported by all these "beautifull young men in marching columns".)
  • Strasser and the NSDAP will be incorporated in the Recihs-goverment (Vice-chancellory for Strasser, one or two ministries, of internal affairs and one other minor perhaps)
  • there have to be Reichstags-elections after Hindenburgs reelection (also in showing the always untimey Hugenberg the ropes. The conservativs/Junkers faction stayed with DNVP out of habit and more "in spite" of Hugenberg than in favor of him)
Of course the SPD won't comply anymore to Brüning, what makes a Center-party-NSDAP go-together even more propable.

Hindenburg gets reelected on the second ballot against whoever goes for the SPD (Otto Braun ? Would still be the best bet, but OTL he was very reluctant and therefore supported the SPD-support of Hindenburg) and ofc Thälmann.
Shortly afterwards a "goverment-crisis" is produced with rearrangement of the goverment along the above mentioned line AND Reichstag is to be reelected also. ... maybe on the same date as the prussian Landtags-election is due ? 24.04.1032 ?

Little side-note :
The "official" reason, why Brüning was thrown out of office by Hindenburg was an emergency-law to deal with the so-called "Ost-Hilfe". A scheme under which the east-elbian junkers were heavily subsidiesed by the goverment. Brüning wnated to cut these what caused OTL a "run" on Hindenburg by his Jnkers-friends to throw out Brüning.
Unfortunatly for Hindenburg : ITTL the more leftish NSDAP supports Brüning in this emergency-law against the Junkers. Might cause some grievience with Hindenburg, but atm not much he can do against, as Brüning now has some strong support in the goverment.

Another side note :
ITTL the NSDAP ofc supported Brüning in prolongating the Berlin treaty of friendship with the SU of 1926. Esp. in the ratification of it, happening ITTL about (at least ?) year earlier than OTL.

Comes the BIG election day 24.04.1932 :
Results will be IMO almost the same as OTL, perhaps even a bit better for the NSDAP, as they are "rid" of the extreme antisemitics (they were elected not for but in-spite of the antisemitism OTL) and being more "social" than OTL (nibbling on SPD right-wingers).
Perhaps even Center-party will perform a bit better, as the "corrective" force on the still in its appearance "revolutionary" though more in-line with "conservative revolution" NSDAP.

Instead of "Preußenschlag" there will be a regular NSDAP-Center goverment of Prussia and a regular NSDAP-Center goverment of the Reich, both with sufficient parlaimentary majority, both lead by the NSDAP. The DNVP might be include to give it more the appearance of a "broad peoples front" now governing the Reich, though it would be an otherwise negligable appendix only.

Gregor Strasser is the new Chancellor of May 1932 with Brüning as foreign secretary.


End (preliminary) of part one.
 
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NoMommsen

Donor
@ArtisticCritic I think Weber and Wagner have been choosen for their general "unknownness" being therefore "clean slates" to project on them whatever own ideas the authors have.

And Strasser ... IMO a somewhat "neglected" figure, indeed. ... also often "mixed up" with his brother Otto Strasser.
Also : there isn't enough "good" and easily available literature about him.
 
@ArtisticCritic I think Weber and Wagner have been choosen for their general "unknownness" being therefore "clean slates" to project on them whatever own ideas the authors have.

And Strasser ... IMO a somewhat "neglected" figure, indeed. ... also often "mixed up" with his brother Otto Strasser.
Also : there isn't enough "good" and easily available literature about him.
Valid point.
 
Not considering the how this scenario happen; the Strasserite Germany, even with the support of the URSS (or more probably because of it) will found obtain concession by the Wallies much more difficult than OTL.
Maybe can get the remilitarization of Rhineland while the rest of the world is distracted by the war in Abyssinia...if the diplomatic situation between Germany and Italy 'force' Mussolini to accept the Hoare-Laval pact...but after that, well it's more or less over.
Germany need to rearm before being able to even fight Italy, and even by OTL 1938 it was too early and surely Mussolini will not support them in case they want the Sudetenland and try to snatch them.

London supported appleasement also because see Germany as a bulk against communism, if Stalin is supportive of Strasser this motivation will not be there, while supporting Italy (at least materially) will become more attractive as option.
 
I have some questions, too...

Would a Strasserist Germany, backed by the Soviet Union, aid Republican Spain over the Franquist?

Would a United Front of National Socialist Germany, Bolshevik Socialist USSR & (if the above manages to turn the tables on the war) Libertarian Socialist Spain be able to hold off the WAllies and/or spark more Socialist movements across the world?

What would this also mean for the Sino-Japanese War?

In fact... Would Strasser still try to implement the Shoah? Or would Strasser's more Socialistic views and alliance with the USSR lead to a more "favorable" treatment of sorts (Say, "just" kick them into Poland instead of the Death Camps of OTL)?
 
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NoMommsen

Donor
In fact... Would Strasser still try to implement the Shoah? Or would Strasser's more Socialistic views and alliance with the USSR lead to a more "favorable" treatment of sorts (Say, "just" kick them into Poland instead of the Death Camps of OTL)?
AFAIK Strasser was lesser a 'racial' antisemit than more opposed to 'international finance judaism', preferable in conjunction mith freemasonship.
So : a more 'abstract' version of antisemitism.

However, when at change 1925/1926 'his' part of the NSDAP, the northwestern 'Gaue' (the whole of the party-organisation beside Bavaria, Swabia and Frankonia, the well bigger and to this date more successfull part) drew up 'their' ... erhm, revision/interpretation/clarification of the 'unchangeable' 25-points party-program, any antisemitic points were ... left in the first draws.
Only on insisting of a though loud minority of some badenian members and from Rhinepfalz some points of the 25 were included :
- expulsion of all jews, who entered the Reich after 01.08.1914
- all citizens being of 'mosaic religion' since 18.01.1871 (continuously ?, what about 'convertites' ?) and their descendants (of still mosaic religion) are rendered 'foreigners' and be declared 'Palestins' (in German : Palestiner)
- accordingly they further will be subjected and 'protected' by the german Foreigners Laws, what exclude them from active as well as passive suffrage and cicil servancy

I am inclined to think Strassers antisemitism was less racial but more ... intellectual or cultural. Possibly he would be prepared to define 'jewancy' more on religious confession than on 'racial' physical marks.

OTL, when making their "law of restoration of the civil service", for expelling jews and any non-nazis from civil services, they bowed to Hindenburgs plea to exclude jewish front-soldiers and esp. beares of the Iron Cross from its application. ... What they did.
(However, they were mostly also expelled by heavy mobbing and bossing.)
 

NoMommsen

Donor
I have some questions, too...

Would a Strasserist Germany, backed by the Soviet Union, aid Republican Spain over the Franquist
IMO would depend on how far 'deteriorated' the relations with Austria/Italy would be at that moment.

... and what Franco or the Republicans would 'offer' in economical/war-economical tems.

However, IF Strasserist germany does not back Franco, but in conjunction with the SU the republicans ... there won't be much of a spanish civil war. Franco would be down rather quickly.
... if any at all, given how crucial the german 'air-lift' of Francists was at the beginning.

...
But ... could the combined support of Germany and the SU eventually change the wallies approach ? ... now backing Franco ?
After all it WAS what we would call a typical 'deputies-war' of the cold-war era.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
@lukedalton
Tbh ... to have an idea of an answer on that I first need to search a bit more about all the 'austrian affairs' of that time to get a better picture of how the german-italian relations could go down the pipe.
... as well as the Strasserist-SU relations might develop.

However, about the relations to the wallies and what Strasser might achieve there or not ... would depend on when and how he 'improves' relations with the SU, when the perception of Germany as a bullwark against Bolshevism vanishes or crumbles at least.

Strasser was still much more 'anti-communist' than 'anti-capitalistic'. In his vision of 'socialism' was no place for Marx, Engels, Liebknecht, Luxemburg and their offsprings (aka Lenin, Trotzki).
 
Is it right to describe Italy as Clericofascist? As I understand it the Italian Fascist regime was an eclectic, even by the typical standards of Fascism, mish-mash of competing and often contradictory and hostile factions, including the Futurists, the Church, the Monarchy and various "socialists". Benito himself was arguably on the left-wing of Fascism, given his political background, stated hostility to the bourgeoisie and support from "socialists" like Nicola Bombacci.
 
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