AHC: Still in Avignon
- Thread starter Mysterion
- Start date
Kinda hard.
The Pope is the Bishop of Rome after all.
However, I'll try to avoid the Schism or delay it enough in order to let the idea of Avignon as the proper and permanent see for the Papacy getting firmly established.
There was quite a lot of unhappiness about the whole "Pope in Avignon" thing. It is called "Captivity" for a reason, although it's probably not a completely fair label.
Time would smooth things down, maybe, in some centuries.
Effects are quite huge. The whole dynamic of international relationships between the Pope and the European monarchs is deeply changed. Reformation as we know it is butterflied away, of course, but any analog movement will be bound to be deeply affected by the fact that the Pope is quite in, er, France (technically Avignon was not part of France at this point, but still). And probably he is no longer the independent ruler of an independent Italian power on top of his spiritual authority.
Probably this would mean a lot less of said authority being recognized, as in the Pope will be seen quite as a "French" political tool. His relationships with Paris might not be rosy all time, but no Avignonese Pope is likely to have the independent leverage their predecessors in Rome enjoyed face the Holy Roman Emperors.
The Pope is the Bishop of Rome after all.
However, I'll try to avoid the Schism or delay it enough in order to let the idea of Avignon as the proper and permanent see for the Papacy getting firmly established.
There was quite a lot of unhappiness about the whole "Pope in Avignon" thing. It is called "Captivity" for a reason, although it's probably not a completely fair label.
Time would smooth things down, maybe, in some centuries.
Effects are quite huge. The whole dynamic of international relationships between the Pope and the European monarchs is deeply changed. Reformation as we know it is butterflied away, of course, but any analog movement will be bound to be deeply affected by the fact that the Pope is quite in, er, France (technically Avignon was not part of France at this point, but still). And probably he is no longer the independent ruler of an independent Italian power on top of his spiritual authority.
Probably this would mean a lot less of said authority being recognized, as in the Pope will be seen quite as a "French" political tool. His relationships with Paris might not be rosy all time, but no Avignonese Pope is likely to have the independent leverage their predecessors in Rome enjoyed face the Holy Roman Emperors.
Alex Richards
Donor
Here's an out of the box idea: Either through it never being lost, or it being returned at Vienna, the Papal States retains Avignon through post Napoleonic/French Revolutionary wars. Later on Italian unification still occurs, and much like OTL eventually the Papal States are overrun by the new Italy and Rome is annexed, much to the Pope's protest. He now relocates 'temporarily' to the only territory he actually has left- Avignon- from where various edicts against the Italian government are made and he he generally makes a fuss of things because the Italians are 'occupying' his land. Roll on to the 20th Century, and Italy ends up taking a turn to the far left, though probably not outright communist, which further prevents a solution from being reached. By the time we get to the modern period, the Italian government is involved in protracted negotiations that are going nowhere fast and the Pope remains in Avignon, refusing to return to Rome until he's got matters sorted.
It's certainly not the most plausible string of events, but I think it could work.
It's certainly not the most plausible string of events, but I think it could work.
Italy remained quite horrifically unstable most of the after the Pope returned in Rome, although there were some moments of relative calm (1454-1494 for example) and probably a strong Papacy in Rome helped (or at least, many believed so at the time). The almost-half-a-millennium long series of Italian Popes was after the Reformation and caused by it, though to be fair, a quite large number of Popes were Italians before as well, for obvious reasons.
And of course, Papal elections during the Avignonese period tended to have the French crown leaning on the Cardinals pretty heavily.
That's sounds kinda likely. I mean Pius IX did have plans to leave Rome, either for England or Germany, so leaving for the Papal enclave of Avignon isn't completely unrealistic.
The Popes in Avignon always suffered from a legitimacy problem. How can you be seriously taken as 'bishop of rome' if you arent in Rome? Especially if there IS an antipope residing there, as there is very likely to be.
Moreover, Avignon is surrounded by French territory, so the Avignon is going to be French puppet. Or at least will be claimed to be.
If the Schism had lasted much longer, Protestantism would have made much more progress, and/or national 'catholic' churches à la Anglicanism would have split Catholicism into a half dozen pieces, leaving 'the pope' in avignon ruling what is essentially a French national church, whatever his claims are.
I SUPPOSE that the papacy could have slightly more credit if italy went protestant and no 'catholic' leader could be reasonably be based in rome. This might let eg Portugal remain under this essentially French 'Roman' church but that neither Spain nor Austria will remain.
Moreover, Avignon is surrounded by French territory, so the Avignon is going to be French puppet. Or at least will be claimed to be.
If the Schism had lasted much longer, Protestantism would have made much more progress, and/or national 'catholic' churches à la Anglicanism would have split Catholicism into a half dozen pieces, leaving 'the pope' in avignon ruling what is essentially a French national church, whatever his claims are.
I SUPPOSE that the papacy could have slightly more credit if italy went protestant and no 'catholic' leader could be reasonably be based in rome. This might let eg Portugal remain under this essentially French 'Roman' church but that neither Spain nor Austria will remain.
Unlikely.
Avignon was de facto a protectorate of France, at the point that a blockade of the Comtat was able to ruin durably it.
Making the pope staying willingly there was asking him to agree to be puppetized.
However, I suppose that in the case of a lasting Great Schism, it's still an option.
Avignon was de facto a protectorate of France, at the point that a blockade of the Comtat was able to ruin durably it.
Making the pope staying willingly there was asking him to agree to be puppetized.
However, I suppose that in the case of a lasting Great Schism, it's still an option.