AHC: Step Up, Peru
- Thread starter Jackanapes
- Start date
lordapocalipsis
Banned
Me too, however i expect only contribute not to help to create those conflicst
lordapocalipsis
Banned
I mean not like the US government (or some factions inside them), which in many times have "created" some circunstances to make some events happen and profit with them.Thank you!
¿Qué?
Anyway, i guess you have suceeded with Avelino Caceres as the person who makes the change in the appropiated moment
Indeed, the best moment for a nation to make profound social changes is after a heavy trauma, and the War of the Pacific is perhaps THE defining moment in OTL Peruvian republican history. So instead of wasting it like OTL, well...
lordapocalipsis
Banned
yeah, but that could be a great timeline if you develop it more;
also, the change of capital is interesting,so no more Lima, "Ciudad de los Reyes" or "La horrible"
maybe there won't be more militar coups (or just a few), I wonder what could have happened with the current leaders?
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Well, I would love to expand it but probably would need help. I'm no expert on Bolivian and Ecuatorian history, so maybe Alfaro and Pando's failures are implausible or need a better POD. Also Cáceres himself, would he really work in advancing the Peruvian indios? Why?
Once we get past these obstacles, and give a reason for Argentina to ally with Perú at that moment, the rest of the timeline can be done (alliance with Perú would secure a new market for the Argentinian nascent industry, preventing their economic debacle, Perón, etc, but they don't know that yet
).
Once we get past these obstacles, and give a reason for Argentina to ally with Perú at that moment, the rest of the timeline can be done (alliance with Perú would secure a new market for the Argentinian nascent industry, preventing their economic debacle, Perón, etc, but they don't know that yet
).Well, I would love to expand it but probably would need help. I'm no expert on Bolivian and Ecuatorian history, so maybe Alfaro and Pando's failures are implausible or need a better POD. Also Cáceres himself, would he really work in advancing the Peruvian indios? Why?
Once we get past these obstacles, and give a reason for Argentina to ally with Perú at that moment, the rest of the timeline can be done (alliance with Perú would secure a new market for the Argentinian nascent industry, preventing their economic debacle, Perón, etc, but they don't know that yet
you could ask DValdron he made an exellent per-ecuador war timeline
Anybody here ever looked into DValdron's Axis of Andes?
It actually started out in Post-1900, but due to a tiny technicality which I was responsible for pointing out (when I nominated it for a Turtledove) the mods moved it to pre-1900--there's this guy born before 1900, you see, and when he was young he made a firmer decision than OTL to commit to Ecuadorian citizenship and patriotism, dramatized by a moment in his young life--which happened to be pre-1900 you see. Never mind that all events in the plot of any significance happen in the 1930s and 40s and it's essentially a World War II ATL!
The story is supposed to be about Ecuador mainly, but the outcome is a revolutionary Peru, revived Inca kingdom in the ideology of the uprising that sweeps the entire Altiplano and absorbs vast sweeps of neighboring (mostly highland) South American countries into the Peru-centered empire. An empire that is, in a vague way, kind of sort of Marxist and enjoys a bit of championship from Stalin (this happens toward the end of WWII) and which the USA is unable to dislodge.
So, that Greater Peru has little projection capability in the sense of sending air craft carrier task forces to face down the USN or RN; nor does it have the industrial mass of the USSR enabling it to be a major exporter of weapons and thus attempt to assemble a bloc of allies via patronage (something the Soviets only ever had any success with when the regimes they offered their largesse of munitions to were also Leninist in ideology anyway--Cuba, Vietnam, yes, but not Egypt or India).
But already in the 1940s they are in a position not unlike Maoist PRC in the 1950s--they can't propose to send ships, tanks or missiles to face down the Yanks, but they export a lot of do-it-yourself revolutionary ideology, and might, after a couple decades of internal development, operate like a more gigantic Cuba, sending out volunteer brigades to either friendly governments or to insurgencies strong enough to hold some territory pretty securely, to do medicine, teaching, and engineering--all of them also armed to defend themselves of course, and serving as cadres of the revolutionary movement and hoping to mentor more of the same overseas by this means.
Obviously the more of this kind of "meddling" the Inkan Empire does, the more irate the USA would be, but I think DValdron was realistic enough in arguing that transformations that empower the various Altiplano Indians of the Andes and forge them into a unified, concerted political movement on their own behalf would result in a large enough body of people located in difficult terrain that they own and outsiders would have difficulty operating in undetected--the conflict would be asymmetrical but some of the asymmetry is against the Yanquis! So they can go on exporting revolutionary inspiration, in the form of substantial numbers of their people doing this sort of armed Peace Corps sort of thing.
Here's a link to the map of South America at the conclusion of the Andes War, which initially started out as aggression by the (criollo, not Indio at all) Peruvian government (or rather a faction of its ruling junta) against Ecuador, in which the Ecuadorian forces (having been deviated from OTL by developments in the 1930s) kicked the Peruvian army over hill and dale; were it not for US disdain for the Ecuadorian regime (based on ill-advised overtures to Mussolini and Hitler for support, detailed in the OP of the thread) Ecuador would surely have been counted the victor and a settlement favoring them worked out...instead the war drags on long enough to spread to a knock-down fight between Chile and Peru, schemes by both sides and third parties to get control of Bolivia--and in the course of all this, the Peruvian regime begins recruiting (often, simply sweeping up in press gangs) Andean Indio peoples who OTL were left largely alone, or anyway exploited only by traditional means--but here, they are sent to WWI-style trenches on the Chilean front, or mismanaged by politically hamstrung Criollo Peruvian officers who don't understand their languages let alone sympathize with them, and so gradually the Indios are organized by being in the Army with their clueless Criollo superior officers being killed off or yanked away in coup and counter-coup and some of their number wind up being promoted to junior positions of command by sheer necessity; this is the core and basis of the new Inkan movement--a desperate rabble in arms who decide to use the arms for their own purposes rather than the vain ones of their Criollo alleged social betters.
I think maybe it is best to let the thread author say for himself just how the timeline sets up a Greater Peru that can be construed as meeting this thread's OP challenge, if we interpret it in the "soft" way that Cuba under Soviet patronage or the modern PRC projected power, literally globally.
It actually started out in Post-1900, but due to a tiny technicality which I was responsible for pointing out (when I nominated it for a Turtledove) the mods moved it to pre-1900--there's this guy born before 1900, you see, and when he was young he made a firmer decision than OTL to commit to Ecuadorian citizenship and patriotism, dramatized by a moment in his young life--which happened to be pre-1900 you see. Never mind that all events in the plot of any significance happen in the 1930s and 40s and it's essentially a World War II ATL!
The story is supposed to be about Ecuador mainly, but the outcome is a revolutionary Peru, revived Inca kingdom in the ideology of the uprising that sweeps the entire Altiplano and absorbs vast sweeps of neighboring (mostly highland) South American countries into the Peru-centered empire. An empire that is, in a vague way, kind of sort of Marxist and enjoys a bit of championship from Stalin (this happens toward the end of WWII) and which the USA is unable to dislodge.
So, that Greater Peru has little projection capability in the sense of sending air craft carrier task forces to face down the USN or RN; nor does it have the industrial mass of the USSR enabling it to be a major exporter of weapons and thus attempt to assemble a bloc of allies via patronage (something the Soviets only ever had any success with when the regimes they offered their largesse of munitions to were also Leninist in ideology anyway--Cuba, Vietnam, yes, but not Egypt or India).
But already in the 1940s they are in a position not unlike Maoist PRC in the 1950s--they can't propose to send ships, tanks or missiles to face down the Yanks, but they export a lot of do-it-yourself revolutionary ideology, and might, after a couple decades of internal development, operate like a more gigantic Cuba, sending out volunteer brigades to either friendly governments or to insurgencies strong enough to hold some territory pretty securely, to do medicine, teaching, and engineering--all of them also armed to defend themselves of course, and serving as cadres of the revolutionary movement and hoping to mentor more of the same overseas by this means.
Obviously the more of this kind of "meddling" the Inkan Empire does, the more irate the USA would be, but I think DValdron was realistic enough in arguing that transformations that empower the various Altiplano Indians of the Andes and forge them into a unified, concerted political movement on their own behalf would result in a large enough body of people located in difficult terrain that they own and outsiders would have difficulty operating in undetected--the conflict would be asymmetrical but some of the asymmetry is against the Yanquis! So they can go on exporting revolutionary inspiration, in the form of substantial numbers of their people doing this sort of armed Peace Corps sort of thing.
Here's a link to the map of South America at the conclusion of the Andes War, which initially started out as aggression by the (criollo, not Indio at all) Peruvian government (or rather a faction of its ruling junta) against Ecuador, in which the Ecuadorian forces (having been deviated from OTL by developments in the 1930s) kicked the Peruvian army over hill and dale; were it not for US disdain for the Ecuadorian regime (based on ill-advised overtures to Mussolini and Hitler for support, detailed in the OP of the thread) Ecuador would surely have been counted the victor and a settlement favoring them worked out...instead the war drags on long enough to spread to a knock-down fight between Chile and Peru, schemes by both sides and third parties to get control of Bolivia--and in the course of all this, the Peruvian regime begins recruiting (often, simply sweeping up in press gangs) Andean Indio peoples who OTL were left largely alone, or anyway exploited only by traditional means--but here, they are sent to WWI-style trenches on the Chilean front, or mismanaged by politically hamstrung Criollo Peruvian officers who don't understand their languages let alone sympathize with them, and so gradually the Indios are organized by being in the Army with their clueless Criollo superior officers being killed off or yanked away in coup and counter-coup and some of their number wind up being promoted to junior positions of command by sheer necessity; this is the core and basis of the new Inkan movement--a desperate rabble in arms who decide to use the arms for their own purposes rather than the vain ones of their Criollo alleged social betters.
I think maybe it is best to let the thread author say for himself just how the timeline sets up a Greater Peru that can be construed as meeting this thread's OP challenge, if we interpret it in the "soft" way that Cuba under Soviet patronage or the modern PRC projected power, literally globally.
Oh yes, it's an exciting timeline, and nicely detailed. The thing is that these situations are quite different. The neo-incas in AoA are revolutionaries, that suffered a long and exhausting war which hit them not only militarily (even if they won) but demografically as well. And even with those things, they industrialized and got in a level similar to "Taiwan or South Korea" (according to DValdron).
They won't be making a big conventional military push or a power projection doctrine. Not only because they can't, but because they don't feel it's worth it, being surrounded by pro-Western states, a fascist Argentina which they share land borders with, and a USA which cannot be beaten anyway.
On the other hand, a Perú (other candidates are Colombia and Brazil, Argentina already makes it in this TL) that industrializes early, that engages on social reforms peacefully since 1900, expands peacefully (if possible of course, I assumed it could happen) and becomes best friends with Argentina (a country on the verge of industrialization); has a lot of time and incentives to grow, and then join the Western bloc. And if it grows enough to become a regional power and industrial nation, a joint military cooperation doctrine is not out of the question (think OTL Australia, Canada, Netherlands).
Maybe after the Cold War the Peruvian aircraft carriers are too much, but Argentina would keep at least one for pride and because they can sustain it (this TL is actually an Argentina wank, Perú would still be behind in GDP and per capita because it started to modernize much later). But I believe that it is possible that Perú participates in UN peacekeeping (it already does today on a smaller scale) and in joint operations like Enduring Freedom, at the very least; if the mentioned economic and social milestones are achieved.
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