AHC: Soviet Nazi war no WAllies involved
- Thread starter Ethan387
- Start date
My TL The Imperious Chairman has a Nazi-Soviet war without Allied involvement so far.
Deleted member 1487
Germany successfully encircles the BEF at Dunkirk and gets the British to exit the war. When Barbarossa happens the British aren't ready to get back in yet and the Japanese attack distracts them from the Nazi-Soviet war. Hitler doesn't help the Japanese in their war against the Anglo-Americans so there are two parallel wars going on.So somehow make a war between the soviet Union and Nazi Germany happen with no French or British involvement.
Get cracking!
Cryhavoc101
Donor
So somehow make a war between the soviet Union and Nazi Germany happen with no French or British involvement.
Get cracking!
I've got an idea where Germany and Russia Invade Poland on the same day
Britain and France go "...Ahhhhhhh we cannot declare war on one without declaring war on the other one as well - and we don't want to be at war with Russia and Germany at the same time......."
So they hold off from handing in final notes from Ambassadors in Berlin to the German Government and instead declare heavy sanctions against both Nations.
Italy does not get its opportunity to jump in as France is about to fall and stays neutral instead.
Despite being 'best buddies' several issues occur that cause deep mistrust between Germany and Russia and this results in Germany being obliged to keep more forces in Poland than OTL meaning that they are unable to focus on France.
By 1941 France and the BEF are too strong to take on with any hope of victory so instead in 1942 Germany invades Russia.
I appreciate that their still is a probability that Britain and France would declare war on both parties anyway......
POD pre invasion of Poland 1939. Sorry should have clarified. And no battles whatsoever between the western powers and germany
Hitler attacks them the year after anyways.
If you actually read Mein Kampf, Hitler lays into the French as much as he lays into the Russians, calling the French the natural enemies of the Germans, and stating flatly that they'd have to be crushed before Germany could achieve her destiny. Militarily, he actually portrays Russia as an afterthought - a bankrupt regime of cultureless barbarians squatting in the ruins of a civilization whose only greatness was transplanted onto it by its now usurped ruling class (Hitler was fond of pointing to all the German blood in the Czars).
Hitler was also fully aware of the increasing pace of French re-armament, something he harangued his generals with repeatedly in October of 1939 when they pleaded with him for more time to rest and plan. Basically, so long as France was mobilizing and re-arming, Hitler was always going to push to attack them as soon as possible.
1. Russia does not sign onto the August 23rd 1939 non aggression pact through some sort of nuance point. (e.g. arguments over Romanian, Baltic territory and/or the drawing of the line of Poland). Hitler nonetheless goes and invades Poland, and subsequently the SU retaliates assisting the Poles.
This probably wouldn't prevent the Western Allies from declaring war themselves, but they may be a bit reluctant.
2. Hitler holds invading into Poland in September 1939 (maybe they the Nazi's are given Danzig, maybe he has a change of thought). Some sort of event occurs on the Soviet/Polish border, perhaps an ultimatum by Stalin and in this instance it is the Germans who will end up assisting the Poles against Russia. I honestly don't think this has much merit although Stalin's army was indeed an offensive army, it wouldn't have been prepared (which is why they did sign the pact with Germany IRL).
3. The Tripartite Pact is signed earlier, perhaps along with the Anti con-intern pact, and then Japan has those border clashes with the SU. Again, imo, not that believable (as Germany would have lost the element of surprise and the ability to even strike - they would have to go through Poland.)
4. The other way and IMO the most likely way this could have materialized is if the British decided to sue for peace after Dunkirk pocket was completely destroyed, or if Nazi Germany gave them an acceptable treaty (the latter of which I believe would have been extremely unlikely). As for the destruction of the Dunkirk pocket, that is a what if question for the ages. But one thing was for sure, in the minutes in the British parliament, there was consideration given to surrender.
This probably wouldn't prevent the Western Allies from declaring war themselves, but they may be a bit reluctant.
2. Hitler holds invading into Poland in September 1939 (maybe they the Nazi's are given Danzig, maybe he has a change of thought). Some sort of event occurs on the Soviet/Polish border, perhaps an ultimatum by Stalin and in this instance it is the Germans who will end up assisting the Poles against Russia. I honestly don't think this has much merit although Stalin's army was indeed an offensive army, it wouldn't have been prepared (which is why they did sign the pact with Germany IRL).
3. The Tripartite Pact is signed earlier, perhaps along with the Anti con-intern pact, and then Japan has those border clashes with the SU. Again, imo, not that believable (as Germany would have lost the element of surprise and the ability to even strike - they would have to go through Poland.)
4. The other way and IMO the most likely way this could have materialized is if the British decided to sue for peace after Dunkirk pocket was completely destroyed, or if Nazi Germany gave them an acceptable treaty (the latter of which I believe would have been extremely unlikely). As for the destruction of the Dunkirk pocket, that is a what if question for the ages. But one thing was for sure, in the minutes in the British parliament, there was consideration given to surrender.