AHC: Song/Ming Lisbon

Is this as implausible as Germany invading America in 1940s (not relevant to the topic here)

  • More so, very implausible

    Votes: 24 35.8%
  • About as implausible

    Votes: 12 17.9%
  • Not as implausible, but pretty damn implausible

    Votes: 31 46.3%

  • Total voters
    67

Lusitania

Donor
Yeah, but at that point in history I'm not actually sure they were that wrong.
If you were talking about people and size yes but not in terms of projecting power. The Portuguese then Dutch and English came to overtake Chinese in ability to project power on global stage.
 
If this article is right, Portugal was technically a tributary of China from 1557 to 1887 due to their annual payment for ownership of Macao. The Portuguese thought it was a rent payment among equals, but China recorded it as tribute.
De jure, sure. But de facto technically China cannot project force into Mainland Portugal in 1557, the Chinese still had a powerful navy at this time, and defeated the Portuguese in a naval battle in 1521 IIRC.
 

Lusitania

Donor
De jure, sure. But de facto technically China cannot project force into Mainland Portugal in 1557, the Chinese still had a powerful navy at this time, and defeated the Portuguese in a naval battle in 1521 IIRC.
The Portuguese navy was at the end of its tenure with closest basevin Malacca. The Chinese be even worse shape trying to project power across the Indian and up the Atlantic Ocean.
 
Zhang He treasure fleet sails Northwest from Cape of Good Hope instead of Southwest, reaches Portugal instead of turning back, reaches Lisbon just in time for another war between Portugal under John I and Castile. Castile offers Lisbon in exchange for an alliance, Zheng He accepts, and thus began almost 4 centuries of Celestial rule over Lisbon (Think a reverse of Hong Kong but much more durable)
 
Just do a standard Song industrialization POD. Then have the Chinese traders who now have steam ships get into a trade conflict with the Iberians who are pirating their Mediterranean trade for Central European silver and Venetian glass and velvet. They occupy Lisbon and annex Almada to keep an eye on the Iberians and to use as a trade port.
 
Yeah, but at that point in history I'm not actually sure they were that wrong.
True
Zhang He treasure fleet sails Northwest from Cape of Good Hope instead of Southwest, reaches Portugal instead of turning back, reaches Lisbon just in time for another war between Portugal under John I and Castile. Castile offers Lisbon in exchange for an alliance, Zheng He accepts, and thus began almost 4 centuries of Celestial rule over Lisbon (Think a reverse of Hong Kong but much more durable)
Interesting, if Castile and Ming ally, do you think Spain would dominate the 16th century even more with the strongest nation in the world at the time it’s ally?

The Ming owning Lisbon could also spark some effects in regards to China’s inwardness.
 
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True, but

Interesting, if Castile and Ming ally, do you think Spain would dominate the 16th century even more with the strongest nation in the world at the time it’s ally?

The Ming owning Lisbon could also spark some effects in regards to China’s inwardness.

Plausible, it may also lead to the Chinese gaining official division/sphere of territory west of the Rockies and/or Andes as well
 
Plausible, it may also lead to the Chinese gaining official division/sphere of territory west of the Rockies and/or Andes as well
True, it may lead to a Treaty of Tordesillas between the two, (excluding the Portuguese, if it hasn’t been conquered by the Spanish) dividing the Americas between the two. (Asia, Europe and Africa could be divided too)

I am not sure if they would be equal in the treaty, since it’s obvious the Ming is much larger in size and power.

This may also lead to the Alliance ganging up on the Ottomans alongside with other Catholic Mediterranean powers.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Zhang He treasure fleet sails Northwest from Cape of Good Hope instead of Southwest, reaches Portugal instead of turning back, reaches Lisbon just in time for another war between Portugal under John I and Castile. Castile offers Lisbon in exchange for an alliance, Zheng He accepts, and thus began almost 4 centuries of Celestial rule over Lisbon (Think a reverse of Hong Kong but much more durable)
Sorry but impossible for the treasure fleet to just hey let’s sail to Europe. The Indian Ocean was regularly travelled with traders sailing from China to Zanzibar. South of Zanzibar and around cape of good Hope was unknown. Do you think that one day portuguese decided to sail to India and sent an expedition? No it took over 50 years of sailing learning about winds and currents and land before the Portuguese set sail for India in 1490s. So we really in the realm of ASB for the treasure fleet to sail from cape good hope to Lisbon.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Hemp, redcurrant, oregano, cabbages, most definitely truffle among others.
But there would need to be a market for those items. It took the crusades for the Europeans to get an appetite for eastern spices. Then the existence of Ottoman Empire and the control of trade by Italian trading countries to make sailing to India an enterprise worth investing tons of $$$.

First the treasure fleets were an expensive political enterprise sent by china to show off its power and strength. There was hardly any trade done but instead the exchange of tribute and gifts.

The Chinese had no knowledge of ability to go to Europe. Which it would of considered barbaric and not worth its effort.
 
Till 1887 Macau was technically part of China so portuguese payed a fee for the privilege of trading with China.

I wonder if you couldn't change things enough for China to want a stake (or naval basing rights?) in the rest of Portugals trading in exchange for a larger amount of control somewhere else. That could get China interested in expansion into the Indian Ocean at least.
 
But there would need to be a market for those items. It took the crusades for the Europeans to get an appetite for eastern spices. Then the existence of Ottoman Empire and the control of trade by Italian trading countries to make sailing to India an enterprise worth investing tons of $$$.

First the treasure fleets were an expensive political enterprise sent by china to show off its power and strength. There was hardly any trade done but instead the exchange of tribute and gifts.

The Chinese had no knowledge of ability to go to Europe. Which it would of considered barbaric and not worth its effort.
Better guns, glassware, armours, and later, clocks and mechanical apparatus.

Would make sense for some merchants to try the trip all the way there for small profits and then hit it big when clocks start to appear
 
But there would need to be a market for those items. It took the crusades for the Europeans to get an appetite for eastern spices. Then the existence of Ottoman Empire and the control of trade by Italian trading countries to make sailing to India an enterprise worth investing tons of $$$.

First the treasure fleets were an expensive political enterprise sent by china to show off its power and strength. There was hardly any trade done but instead the exchange of tribute and gifts.

The Chinese had no knowledge of ability to go to Europe. Which it would of considered barbaric and not worth its effort.
The treasure fleets are often analogized to the USA’s Apollo program, one for prestige, but not in any material gains.

But the Apollo program kickstarted probably the start of the colonization of Space in the future, and a China that doesn’t burns its navy is going to be definitely more outward than our OTL Ming.
 
China really wants silver more than anything else.
Avoid the Mongol invasions, or go even further and keep a stronger hold over Vietnam. With a stronger focus on Indonesia etc China develops a more mercantilisitc viewpoint. As part of this you see increased Muslim proselytization in DR Asia. Not enough to convert China but enough that there are plenty of pilgrims crossing the Indian Ocean. These obviously need protection.

Not simply aping western imperialism the Chiense voyages see themselves as "fathers of the world" and expand across the Indian Ocean during the middle ages, setting up Chinese trade quarters and political contacts as far afield as Cairo and Zanzibar. Then some Iberians come knocking from beyond the Cape... China doesn't like that. Things get out of hand....
 
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