AHC: Song/Ming Lisbon

Is this as implausible as Germany invading America in 1940s (not relevant to the topic here)

  • More so, very implausible

    Votes: 24 35.8%
  • About as implausible

    Votes: 12 17.9%
  • Not as implausible, but pretty damn implausible

    Votes: 31 46.3%

  • Total voters
    67
I saw an old post/comment around here (when i was a lurker) where the Ming took Lisbon.

Now is this actually possible? Certainly this is not ASB.

With a POD of not earlier than 960AD, how can China take Lisbon from the Iberian power that owns it? (Portugal, Unmayad dynasty)
 
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Even leaving the logistics aside, China would need a reason to do so. Europe wanted spices from the east, what would China want out of Europe?
 
Genghis Khan dies in a hunting accident as a child, Song Empire stabilizes and industrializes, and then they engage in colonialism around the world in order to sell their products. They reach Europe through colonies on the Horn of Africa and the Cape, eventually reach the Iberian Penninsula.
 
Even leaving the logistics aside, China would need a reason to do so. Europe wanted spices from the east, what would China want out of Europe?
Perhaps as a trading outpost.

They might be in Europe to sell products, not to buy.

Also if we can count the New Imperialism period (1815-1914 i believe) where Africa was colonized. Parts of the Scramble for Africa was for useless land, mainly for prestige colonies.

So either as a trading post, or for prestige, or for colonies sake (if its there, why not just take it?)
 
Genghis Khan dies in a hunting accident as a child, Song Empire stabilizes and industrializes, and then they engage in colonialism around the world in order to sell their products. They reach Europe through colonies on the Horn of Africa and the Cape, eventually reach the Iberian Penninsula.
Damn, never realised the effect on the world if Genghis Khan wasn’t born.
 
More plausible simply because your POD is centuries back enough so that butterflies could conceivably produce such a situation while a German invasion of America in 1940 is logistically impossible.
 
That's quite interesting and not that crazy. You just need a more extreme version of the OTL debates around commercial openings.
I'd think either no Simao Andrades or Simao Andrades followed by a more aggressive Portuguese move, maybe they actually try and take Canton as theorized by the crew of Tomé Pires.
Big Chinese backlash and they decide they need to control the trade and that it's their moral duty to clear the seas and control them. They end up going back to the sources by tracking back the Portuguese to Lisbon and somehow take the city (alliance with the Turks?)
 
More plausible simply because your POD is centuries back enough so that butterflies could conceivably produce such a situation while a German invasion of America in 1940 is logistically impossible.
True. There are many possible ways for China to take Lisbon with a POD as far back as 960AD, as opposed to German invasion of America (Sealion is already ASB, let alone invading a populous nation, millions of citizens armed with guns, and an unstoppable military-industrial production at that time).
 

Lusitania

Donor
What you need is for a POD that allows China to stop the mongol invasion and without ability to invade south the strike west. For a developed China and Europe the same would not allow China to capture Lisbon. You need to also limit technology and strength of Europe. So everything has to go great for China. It not only avoids barbarian invasion but also dies not stagnate as well starts colonizing and trading. Treasure fleets not feasible since they not sustainable and provided China with little to no economic value. (Lots of prestige).
 

Lusitania

Donor
If this article is right, Portugal was technically a tributary of China from 1557 to 1887 due to their annual payment for ownership of Macao. The Portuguese thought it was a rent payment among equals, but China recorded it as tribute.
Yes China had a very grand view of itself. The Portuguese played nice and things were pretty much undisturbed till the early 19th century when the British disrupted their distorted view of the world.
 

Lusitania

Donor
Yes China had a very grand view of itself. The Portuguese played nice and things were pretty much undisturbed till the early 19th century when the British disrupted their distorted view of the world.
Till 1887 Macau was technically part of China so portuguese payed a fee for the privilege of trading with China.
 
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