AHC: Soldier Blue in the Barren Wastes

The West was a primary ignition point in the Civil War, as things were not as well established, and Seperatists claimed territory, and killed many sided with the Union.

Let us say there is a British/French intervention in the Civil War, and the war is prolonged.

Would there be more organizations like the Rough Riders and their seperatist counterparts?

Would Indians and Landowners become involved in the violence?
 
WienerBlut

You would probably find a lot of regional militia groups, to seek to defend themselves when the US army is drawn into defending the east coast. Some of those may become involved in fighting with Indians and also private interests. If a prolonged war and the union really starts to suffer they could also become separatists themselves, or at least seeking to avoid conscription by the central government pulling men away from where their needed and want to be.

The main problem those groups will have, whatever their aims, would be getting equipment, especially weapons and ammunition. Also, since they will be largely part time probably lacking in training and organisation. Hence they are likely to be formidable as guerilla resistance to any intruders but their unlikely to be invading anywhere and any fighting is likely to be very low level but possibly quite nasty. [Like a bloody western film but on a significantly large scale possibly].

Steve

The West was a primary ignition point in the Civil War, as things were not as well established, and Seperatists claimed territory, and killed many sided with the Union.

Let us say there is a British/French intervention in the Civil War, and the war is prolonged.

Would there be more organizations like the Rough Riders and their seperatist counterparts?

Would Indians and Landowners become involved in the violence?
 
Already OTL, with no foreign powers intervening and Union force present in the West, there was a certain amount of intrigue and action. IIRC, there was an actual cavalry battle fought in the Redlands/San Bernadino region of Southern California between secessionists and Unionists. Sonoma County, California, was sort of split--the larger settlement area around Santa Rosa (a town that had been established in the first place to move the county seat away from Latino-settled Sonoma) hosted a lot of Confederate sympathizers, whereas the town of Petaluma recruited and equipped a unit (don't remember how large) for the Union forces. I'm also told that the state of Nevada came into existence as a way of packing the Senate with as many Unionists (ie Republicans) as possible--the Civil War ended the squabbling between the Deseret regime and the Union, as the Union hastily agreed to make peace with the Mormons to secure their support. Hiving off Nevada from Deseret's claims was favored not only to get two more Senators but also because the Utah regime quickly washed their hands of the wild-western types who first settled in Nevada...

So yeah, if I weren't dismissing the prospect of strong European intervention (only British intervention could have been really effective, other Europeans would have been along for the ride) as rather ASB in itself, I for one would be looking at what happens out west in such timelines.

The British would have themselves a bit of a dilemma here. Aiding the Confederacy would tend to weaken the Union's hold on the West and tempt Southerners to try for land grabs in that direction; in California they certainly had some potential allies. How would the peoples actually living in New Mexico have felt about being taken into the Confederacy? Would the Mormons have been amenable to playing both federal governments off against each other?

But anyway--the more successful the Confederates are at getting power on the West coast, the more nervous Britain would be. The major purpose of the British intervention after all is to weaken and check Yankee power before it develops to levels that Britain can only bow to. It would not be ideal to give a second upstart American power an outlet on the Pacific as well. Yet without Confederate aid, surely the Union, if not shattered completely (which outcome I think would be particularly ASB) would retain at least the Bay Area of California and a strong hold on Oregon as well. IIRC Washington State along with Nevada and Utah were hastily added to the Union as states during this period, so perhaps a British adventure could plan on seizing Washington and adding it to British Columbia, and perhaps from there at least dominating Oregon--though I think the US settlement of Oregon was so deeply established at that point, and not pro-Confederate, that for either the CSA or Britain to try and actually hold Oregon would get them entangled in some level of insurgency that would be very costly and possibly unwinnable. Thus the USA presumably keeps at least Portland and the mouth of the Columbia as one certain outlet onto the Pacific, and very likely San Francisco Bay and probably retains Los Angeles as well--the latter because Britain has mixed feelings about supporting a Confederate takeover there, which makes the project even more marginal.

One doubts very much that Californians would acquiesce in becoming a British protectorate though I suspect a decisive majority would prefer that over becoming a Confederate state. No matter what, the Union will at least retain Portland anyway so there isn't really a strong motive for the British to try and deny Union access to the Pacific, so by supporting the status quo there they block the Confederacy from intruding its loose cannons into the mix.
 
Shevek23

Possible [as opposed to probable] futures for California are what triggered this thread into what at times has verged [at the least] into a flame war. Have a look at the early pages for some details. [Sorry, ignore that. I've spent too long on the British gains from intervention in the ACW thread and getting confused.:eek:]

I can't see that much chance of the south controlling California or Nevada although concern about such might help sway some towards independence, as you say. California, or at least the core region, and also Oregon can be occupied by Britain but although the population of the later is small fairly small [~50k] I doubt Britain would seek annexation of either. The region north of the Columbia would be another matter, especially if the war was lengthy.

In terms of the Mormons I think, if they got the chance they could well try for full independence. If the war does see a partition of the west this could well be popular with other powers in terms of using them as a buffer and keeping them out of the control of rivals.

Steve
 
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