AHC: Smallest possible China

In any case, the noticeable lack of tribal rebellions in southwestern China as opposed to Burma, Laos, Northeast India, and Vietnam does suggest an identification with the Chinese nation. Hence, no possibility of Guangxi or Yunnan separating out of different identities.

Lack of rebellion does not equate to them thinking of themselves as Chinese, it simply means they either don't feel the need to or consider doing so to be counter-productive.

Historically the lack of rebellion has most likely been the result of their being no overarching groups to organize such a thing and the status of the region (in this case I'm referring to Yunnan and its surroundings) as a backwater of sorts that was mostly left alone in comparison to other parts of the country.
 
I thought we are talking about 17th and 18th century...


OK. I'm bit lost.
So are you still think it was not possible to have Mongolian dominated state if Outer and Inner Mongolia become independent with the POD of late 1700's (18th century) and early 1800's (19th century)?
 
Lack of rebellion does not equate to them thinking of themselves as Chinese, it simply means they either don't feel the need to or consider doing so to be counter-productive.

Historically the lack of rebellion has most likely been the result of their being no overarching groups to organize such a thing and the status of the region (in this case I'm referring to Yunnan and its surroundings) as a backwater of sorts that was mostly left alone in comparison to other parts of the country.

IMO, only way Cantonese becoming Independent state is if they are ideologically antagonist to Chinese state.
Maybe given sometime they would think same as Taiwanese today?
Nationalism come to Mainland China early 1900's. So given regions some time it might develop different nation states.
Look at Palestine. 1940's there wasn't any Palestine nations. They were all Arabs. But today they identify themselves Palestinians.
 
Chop up China into colonies for all the European powers plus Japan and the US, leaving a Free City of Peking or Nanking or Shanghai or Canton or something.

There, done.
 
Not really, this is a projection of European style linguistic nationalism/seperatism which doesn't exist in any serious way in China

With a couple centuries to work with, I fail to see why the European nationalism bug couldn't spread to China, especially if it spent a while colonially partitioned.
 
Another thought: some sort of *Taiping equivalent conquers half of China. "Traditionalist" China survives in north China and Manchuria. Northerners, at least, consider themselves the "true" Chinese after the south converts to wacky religion and abandons most of old Chinese culture.

Bruce
 

RousseauX

Donor
Lack of rebellion does not equate to them thinking of themselves as Chinese, it simply means they either don't feel the need to or consider doing so to be counter-productive.

Historically the lack of rebellion has most likely been the result of their being no overarching groups to organize such a thing and the status of the region (in this case I'm referring to Yunnan and its surroundings) as a backwater of sorts that was mostly left alone in comparison to other parts of the country.
Historically when ethnic minorities rebelled they were identical to Han rebellions in the sense that they sought to overthrow the existing regime and replace it with their own dynastic candidate rather than form their own country.
 

RousseauX

Donor
With a couple centuries to work with, I fail to see why the European nationalism bug couldn't spread to China, especially if it spent a while colonially partitioned.
Where have European style linguistic nationalism actually spread?

To my knowledge it seems a distinct European phenomenon, and only parts of Europe for that matter.
 
Lack of rebellion does not equate to them thinking of themselves as Chinese, it simply means they either don't feel the need to or consider doing so to be counter-productive.

From my observations and the time I spent in Yunnan this summer, yeah, that's pretty accurate. Things get a bit more heated as you approach the northern half of the province near Tibet, but in the south a lot of Naxi/Yi/etc and Han customs are pretty well interwoven.
 
I think the European colonization route is probably the best. China is divided up by the European powers, Japan, and the USA. Then in the chaos of the WWII period they begin to gain their independence, however they end up with multiple forms of government. Some retain the monarchy, some end up American style republics or parliamentary democracies while others are Maoist style dictatorships. As the 20th century progresses their economies and culture grow farther and farther apart until you end up with a situation like the two Koreas.
 
I thought we are talking about 17th and 18th century...

I was talking about different points throughout the last two-thousand years, with specific points in the 18th, 19th and 20th centuries.


OK. I'm bit lost.
So are you still think it was not possible to have Mongolian dominated state if Outer and Inner Mongolia become independent with the POD of late 1700's (18th century) and early 1800's (19th century)?

Oh no, with an PoD that early I think it's possible, however the further you go the less possible it becomes, and you'd still have a Han minority of atleast 15% regardless unless you don't include the the bits of Inner Mongolia the Han populaton was traditionally condensed around.


IMO, only way Cantonese becoming Independent state is if they are ideologically antagonist to Chinese state.
Maybe given sometime they would think same as Taiwanese today?
Nationalism come to Mainland China early 1900's. So given regions some time it might develop different nation states.
Look at Palestine. 1940's there wasn't any Palestine nations. They were all Arabs. But today they identify themselves Palestinians.

Possibly so, though I was actually primarily thinking of the area roughly corresponding to modern Yunnan, Guìzhōu and Guǎngxī.
 
Chop up China into colonies for all the European powers plus Japan and the US, leaving a Free City of Peking or Nanking or Shanghai or Canton or something.

There, done.

With a couple centuries to work with, I fail to see why the European nationalism bug couldn't spread to China, especially if it spent a while colonially partitioned.

I think the European colonization route is probably the best. China is divided up by the European powers, Japan, and the USA. Then in the chaos of the WWII period they begin to gain their independence, however they end up with multiple forms of government. Some retain the monarchy, some end up American style republics or parliamentary democracies while others are Maoist style dictatorships. As the 20th century progresses their economies and culture grow farther and farther apart until you end up with a situation like the two Koreas.

Not really.

Outside the Concession Cities China was not divided like that both because it would not make sense economically (the European interest in China was predominantly economic) and because everyone knew they could never control it if they did, since China was home to hundreds of millions of people and formed a cohesive state culture (as opposed to India where the lack of a single state or culture allowed Britiain to manipulate the situation to their favour).

Additionally the United States was very opposed to it as well, hence the Open Door policy.
 
Atomic war. Most of the world collapses, including China, which turns into a chaotic patchwork of 'warlord'-esque states.
 
Oh no, with an PoD that early I think it's possible, however the further you go the less possible it becomes, and you'd still have a Han minority of atleast 15% regardless unless you don't include the the bits of Inner Mongolia the Han populaton was traditionally condensed around.

Totally agree, with 1800's POD.
With 1850's POD you would have 30%-40% Han Chinese minority population.
 
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