AHC: Slavs in East Germany

Hello Gentlemen,

Your Alternate History Challenge is to create a plausible scenario were the Slavs who migrated to Eastern Germany remain the majority there. By the Slavs I mean Wends, Sorbs etc. Note that "Brandenburg" actually originates from the Old Slavic "Branibor", so the Slavs had significant influence in Eastern Germany.
 
Hello Gentlemen,

Your Alternate History Challenge is to create a plausible scenario were the Slavs who migrated to Eastern Germany remain the majority there. By the Slavs I mean Wends, Sorbs etc. Note that "Brandenburg" actually originates from the Old Slavic "Branibor", so the Slavs had significant influence in Eastern Germany.
Hm, scenario, you say...

How about this one?
- They kill all the Germans there and live long and happily! :)

p.s. And if the other Germans come there again the Slavs kill them too. :D
 
How about more successful Thrasco (Drosaico, Drażko) - a Slavic ruler of the Obodrite people, an ally of Charlemagne against Saxons. He decides to convert to Christianity and receives a strong help from the Frank Empire; he also isn't murdered in 809, but thanks to Frankich and Christian help he strengthen his rule. With time, Thrasco's successors conquer all/most of Slavic tribes in what today is called Eastern Germany and create a Christian Slavic state.
 
The slav rulers of said territories also do not invite german settlers to boost their taxable population in the 11th to 14th centuries (no east settlement, e.g. no Germans in the Sudeten area). The Teutonic Knights are annihilated just like the templars were or at least not granted lands on the baltic coast, instead, they settle in e.g. North Schleswig instead. So most of the principalities east of the Elbe keep their overwhelmingly slavic population.
 
If you did a genetic study (assuming there was any genetic marker you could use), you would probvably find that the perople living there are, in their majority, descended from the Slavic inhabitants of the early middle aghes rather than of the German immigrants of the high middle ages. I would also speculate that the Slavic inhabitants were, to a significant part, descended from the presumed-Germanic-speaking peoples who lived there before.

What you are looking for, I guess, is a scenario in which the people east of the Elbe continue speaking a west Slavic language rather than one in which they are descended from Slavs (what does that mean at the societal level, anyway?) In that case, an early Christianisation is your best bet. Poland and Bohemia, the two West Slavic speaking groups Christianised earliest, were also most successful at keeping their language alive and maintaining a degree of national identity through the centuries. It removes the excuse for invasion and colonisation. Note that historically Polish territory never became as monolingually German as Wendish territory did, even when German speakers formed local majorities.
 
How about more successful Thrasco (Drosaico, Drażko) - a Slavic ruler of the Obodrite people, an ally of Charlemagne against Saxons. He decides to convert to Christianity and receives a strong help from the Frank Empire; he also isn't murdered in 809, but thanks to Frankich and Christian help he strengthen his rule. With time, Thrasco's successors conquer all/most of Slavic tribes in what today is called Eastern Germany and create a Christian Slavic state.

Which eventually merges with Poland creating polish state from Elbe to Bug. :D
 
Originally posted by Rudi Maxer
Which eventually merges with Poland creating polish state from Elbe to Bug

1. Why only to Bug? ;)
2. More seriously: not necessarily - Poland and Bohemia were both Slavic, both Christian and yet, except short period at the end of the XIIIth century, they were never united; more likely Obodrite-Welet-Sorbian kingdom expands east and conquer Lechite tribes to Vistula and beyond.
 
Originally posted by Rudi Maxer
1. Why only to Bug? ;)
Because there is an old Russian saying- "Помни, ляше, что по Буг- наше." ( means "Remember, you, Pole, what is on the eastern side of Bug that is ours, not yours"; pronounced as "Pomni, lyashe, chto po Bug- nashe")
 
Originally posted by Rudi Maxer


1. Why only to Bug? ;)
2. More seriously: not necessarily - Poland and Bohemia were both Slavic, both Christian and yet, except short period at the end of the XIIIth century, they were never united; more likely Obodrite-Welet-Sorbian kingdom expands east and conquer Lechite tribes to Vistula and beyond.

Actually the Veleti,Polans and Polabians could form Poland and the Southern Lechites at this time are known as White Croats or Chorbatians I imagine both White Croatia and Poland coexisting ITTL, the White Croats converted to Greek Rite but they will later abandon it for the Latin rite later on.
 
Originally posted by Shnurre
Because there is an old Russian saying- "Помни, ляше, что по Буг- наше." ( means "Remember, you, Pole, what is on the eastern side of Bug that is ours, not yours"; pronounced as "Pomni, lyashe, chto po Bug- nashe")

And how old is that saying, considered that until 1797 Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth reached far east from Bug?

Originally posted by kasumigenx
Actually the Veleti,Polans and Polabians could form Poland and the Southern Lechites at this time are known as White Croats or Chorbatians I imagine both White Croatia and Poland coexisting ITTL, the White Croats converted to Greek Rite but they will later abandon it for the Latin rite later on.

If the founder of the Western Slavic state is Thersco, it changes a lot; there will be no Poland, but Sclavenia (Slavic land) or something similar, since Polans started their expansion a hundred years later (and it is doubtful if they called themselves Polans anyway). The center of Sclavenia would be more west, probably close to Oder river (Odra) which for quite some time will be a central river of Sclavenia, like Vistula today is a central river of Poland, and Warta was to the early Polans' state.
 
Originally posted by Shnurre


And how old is that saying, considered that until 1797 Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth reached far east from Bug?

Originally posted by kasumigenx


If the founder of the Western Slavic state is Thersco, it changes a lot; there will be no Poland, but Sclavenia (Slavic land) or something similar, since Polans started their expansion a hundred years later (and it is doubtful if they called themselves Polans anyway). The center of Sclavenia would be more west, probably close to Oder river (Odra) which for quite some time will be a central river of Sclavenia, like Vistula today is a central river of Poland, and Warta was to the early Polans' state.

I think it could be called Slovania.
 
Originally posted by Shnurre


And how old is that saying, considered that until 1797 Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth reached far east from Bug?
Pretty old ( at least it is in the earliest collections of Russian folklore) . Since Kievan Rus' when the border with Poland was along the Bug and in some places- Galicia for instance- Rus' reacht west from Bug. Since then all Russian states considered Bug as rightfull border with Poles. Lithuania before Lublin Union was largely Russian speaking state and had a border with Poland exactly along the Bug. And after the Union all Russian Czars always had claim for lands to the east of Bug.
But actually I mentioned this saying for fun only and didn't expect any discussion on it.
 
Gottschalk is also a good idea, IMHO, although I think his kingdom/duchy would be heavily germanized in time. Also, I think that most of the problems Gottschalk had might be because many of Slavs saw him as Christian/Saxon puppet and they were unwilling to have him as their king.
Had Thrasco started Christianization of western Slavs, I think his chances might be bigger. He would do it by his own will, and that means the Church would support Slavs, not their enemies, Saxons. Christianity brought not by foreign force might be more attractive to Slavs; the process itself might last longer, which would make it easier to accept.
 
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