AHC: Sioux Indian Wank

With a POD at any time after 1000, have the Sioux Indians successfully resist colonization. Bonus if they form a large empire. Extra bonus points if they form a colonist empire. Extra double bonus points if one of their colonies is in europe.
 
Gold is never found on Sioux land. Now the largest reservation is for the very loose confederation of Sioux tribes, in Montana, the Dakotas, and Wyoming. Without such a shithole semi-genocidal reservation system, the Sioux and others are far better off.

EDIT: Later on, when the Sioux do find the gold, sometime between 1890 and 1950, that's going to give them something more than casinos (why is there a connection in N. America between natives and gambling?) to get revenue off of. When Obama legalizes the production of recreational weed, the far more developed reservations are going to profit metric-shittons from tourists in states faraway from Colorado and the Northwest.
 
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Gold is never found on Sioux land. Now the largest reservation is for the very loose confederation of Sioux tribes, in Montana, the Dakotas, and Wyoming. Without such a shithole semi-genocidal reservation system, the Sioux and others are far better off.

But what happens when gold is found?
 
Gold is never found on Sioux land. Now the largest reservation is for the very loose confederation of Sioux tribes, in Montana, the Dakotas, and Wyoming. Without such a shithole semi-genocidal reservation system, the Sioux and others are far better off.

Well I guess the Sioux could kill all the prospectors, but I think that hardly helps their case.

To really get any of the tribes to survive you need a more patchwork North America rather than the United States stomping all over the place ethnically cleansing prime settler territory of Natives. This means the Natives can play other sides off against each other, while keeping a core region intact as a buffer against one power or another.
 
Tough challenge. The Sioux tribes migrated to the Great Plains between 1650 and 1750, if not a bit later. It is unlikely they could build an empire before then; the Iroquois, Shawnee, Ojibwa, and other tribes of the Upper Midwest had the benefit of possessing more firearms and horses.

How about a Comanche-Sioux Empire? Say the "proto"-Comanche migrate east instead of south when they get horses and "merge" with the migrating Sioux crossing the Missouri River. It would quite possibly be the strongest and fiercest group of nomads since the Mongols. With more horses and more supplies gathered from faraway raids, the tribes could resist colonization longer. Of course, they ultimately won't last long, not unless some very forward-thinking leaders get their people to adopt some agricultural and metal-working practices.
 
Tough challenge. The Sioux tribes migrated to the Great Plains between 1650 and 1750, if not a bit later. It is unlikely they could build an empire before then; the Iroquois, Shawnee, Ojibwa, and other tribes of the Upper Midwest had the benefit of possessing more firearms and horses.

Nearer to 1750. The Sioux did have one thing going for them when they got onto the plains and that was numbers, they outnumbered the Crow their major rivals in the early 1800s approximately 4-1 (which is why the Crow were eager allies of first the fur traders and then the U.S. government and were probably better warriors man for man).

How about a Comanche-Sioux Empire? Say the "proto"-Comanche migrate east instead of south when they get horses and "merge" with the migrating Sioux crossing the Missouri River. It would quite possibly be the strongest and fiercest group of nomads since the Mongols. With more horses and more supplies gathered from faraway raids, the tribes could resist colonization longer.

OTL Comanche were relatives of the Shoshone (split sometime around 1700) with one group going south and becoming the Comanche, in part because of easy access to Spanish horses. The Shoshone, on the other hand were pushed back into the mountains by their rivals the Blackfeet (who had better access to British guns and horses). ATL more inland Comanche hooking up with Sioux would not have the easy access to Spanish horses and would probably not develop as they did.

Of course, they ultimately won't last long, not unless some very forward-thinking leaders get their people to adopt some agricultural and metal-working practices.

Problem with a "settled life" was it was actually a disadvantage as the horse hit the Plains. There were tribes like the Mandan who where settled, being primarilly traders and farmers. What happened to them and other tribes like them was that "village tribes" were more vunerable compared to the spread out nomad bands to the diseases that devastated Indians across the continent.

Much of what became Sioux territory was opened up to them because their rivals suffered devistating epidemics.

Hope this was useful.

One thought, Crazy Horse and Sitting Bull knew they could not "win" in the 1870s. But they did believe (And I remember reading somewhere Crazy Horse had a vision which was a big part of his motivation) that resistance and the "example" they set would serve the Sioux well in the long term, which it has seemed to.

Something could be done with this.
 
sioux of 76

Part 1. Sioux win decisevly at the Rosebud.
Part 2. When Reno is attacked, they stay to finish him off, instead of going for overkill against Custer. 3: This may not be in character, but instead of killing all the enemy, they keep many of them as hostages.
This way I think they will get a better deal.
 
Thinking on this, I think the best way to do this is for a longer Viking contact in the 1000's (?), then the diseases already arrive in the Americas long before prolonged contact. Then, settled culture may be more acceptable, and thus, Sioux Empire.
 
I think what would help the Sioux out the most would be a more politically divided North America. If rather than a strong, unified United States spreading across the continent, there were a series of smaller nations, the Sioux would have a much better shot at holding them off.

This could be accomplished by the British doing worse in the colonization game, and more French, Dutch and other European settlements surviving in North America. Or for a later POD, the more divided up the US can get, the better.
 
Thinking on this, I think the best way to do this is for a longer Viking contact in the 1000's (?), then the diseases already arrive in the Americas long before prolonged contact. Then, settled culture may be more acceptable, and thus, Sioux Empire.

Not bad, but TTL's Sioux won't look anything like OTL's Sioux. At the time of Viking exploration, the Sioux were semi-sedentary and living in the woods around the Western Great Lakes, or even further east, I'm not sure. They'll also have quite a bit of competition with tribes like the Iroquois. Their warrior culture developed only after being pushed west by tribes who were also being pushed west by British and French colonists.

Oh, and thanks to Kerney for the corrections and expertise!
 
Not bad, but TTL's Sioux won't look anything like OTL's Sioux. At the time of Viking exploration, the Sioux were semi-sedentary and living in the woods around the Western Great Lakes, or even further east, I'm not sure. They'll also have quite a bit of competition with tribes like the Iroquois. Their warrior culture developed only after being pushed west by tribes who were also being pushed west by British and French colonists.

Oh, and thanks to Kerney for the corrections and expertise!

Then maybe have an Algonquian tribe start getting violent and that pushes the Sioux a bit farther west and gives them a more warlike edge.
 

Driftless

Donor
(why is there a connection in N. America between natives and gambling?)

It seems to be a by-product of the original treaties that actually has worked for the indians. Most gambling laws are enforced by state and local legislation, the indian nations/tribes don't fall under their jurisdiction. There's a lot more to the situtation than that, but there's the kernel of it
 
It seems to be a by-product of the original treaties that actually has worked for the indians. Most gambling laws are enforced by state and local legislation, the indian nations/tribes don't fall under their jurisdiction. There's a lot more to the situtation than that, but there's the kernel of it

It just like wierd laws that used to exist where i live that casinos couldnt be on land but could be built on water and had to move hence the riverboat casino.
 
Yeah, it is mostly an issue of who has jurisdiction, but also because casinos are short-term projects that outside investors love. Problem is gambling has a depressing effect on local economies, discouraging small businesses and promoting low-wage jobs. At least that's been the case with a lot of Native casinos here in Arizona.
 

Driftless

Donor
Yeah, it is mostly an issue of who has jurisdiction, but also because casinos are short-term projects that outside investors love. Problem is gambling has a depressing effect on local economies, discouraging small businesses and promoting low-wage jobs. At least that's been the case with a lot of Native casinos here in Arizona.

The only gambling I do is putting in $10 on the NCAA Basketball pool at work, so take this for what it is worth... In the upper midwest indian casinos are still a growth industry - for now... and a real political football, with implications for presidential aspirations. I think there is great risk for some tribes of an over-saturated market, and they'd be wise to wrap things up and move their profits to other fronts. Some of the tribes have invested in local infrastructure, education programs, etc.

*edit* Sorry, I have an un-intended ability to side-track threads off onto tangents...

My two cents on topic: more early and extensive exposure to European disease through contact with the Vinland Northmen, gives all native Americans time to recover and build immunity. That should slow down later European conquest and immigration. Also, the idea of a less cohesive United States should help the western indian nations
 
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The only gambling I do is putting in $10 on the NCAA Basketball pool at work, so take this for what it is worth... In the upper midwest indian casinos are still a growth industry - for now... and a real political football, with implications for presidential aspirations. I think there is great risk for some tribes of an over-saturated market, and they'd be wise to wrap things up and move their profits to other fronts. Some of the tribes have invested in local infrastructure, education programs, etc.

*edit* Sorry, I have an un-intended ability to side-track threads off onto tangents...

My two cents on topic: more early and extensive exposure to European disease through contact with the Vinland Northmen, gives all native Americans time to recover and build immunity. That should slow down later European conquest and immigration. Also, the idea of a less cohesive United States should help the western indian nations

A POD that far back would almost completely butterfly any chance of the Souix arising in a manner that we would recognize and there would also be no US and colonialism would take an entirely different turn.
 
I think what would help the Sioux out the most would be a more politically divided North America. If rather than a strong, unified United States spreading across the continent, there were a series of smaller nations, the Sioux would have a much better shot at holding them off.

This could be accomplished by the British doing worse in the colonization game, and more French, Dutch and other European settlements surviving in North America. Or for a later POD, the more divided up the US can get, the better.

I'm going to second this. The best way to have a Sioux nation that is recognizably similar to the one IOTL is to have them face more divided and therefore less powerful Europeans.

Other POD's include quick and decisive destruction/driving away of Native enemies of the nation, which would deprive the colonists of valuable allies and scouts, and an alliance similar to the one IOTL with the Cheyenne and Arapaho to dominate the mid-plains.

It's not very likely given their location, but having refugee slaves/indentured servants fleeing the colonist states and becoming inducted into Sioux society could be very helpful, as long as it's a manageably small refugee wave.
 
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