AHC: Scientology a mainstream religion

Well, if we are going to regard OTL growth of Scientology as Christianity's, then to have Scientology have the growth of Islam would require L. Ron Hubbard to conquer America.
 
Hubbard dies in the 1950s. A.E. Van Vogt becomes new leader, integrates the ideas of Dianetics and General Semantics. Then another science fiction writer, Jane Roberts, is recruited (not brainwashed, recruited) and she brings the spiritual dimension that Scientology had previously lacked. Van Vogt steps down to return to fiction writing; Roberts builds up a benign self-help religion without any cultism. Her TV show in which she channels "Seth" every Tuesday night becomes a sensation and lasts until her death in 1984. Leadership of the church then passes to Roberts' special assistant and chosen successor, former Nashville TV news anchor Oprah Winfrey. As of 2017, the Church of Scientology, with headquarters in Leesburg, VA, is estimated to have 12 million members in the United States and 20 million worldwide. It has its own university in Falls Church, Virginia, with 18,000 students; which is rated among the top 20 universities in the country. The Physics department at Jane Roberts University, headed by David Deutsch, the quantum physicist, is world famous for its experiments proving the existence of multiple universes and the possibility of communication between them, which won Deutsch the Nobel Prize. The Church of Scientology has an unparalleled get out the vote machine across the country, making Pastor Winfrey one of the most politically influential religious leaders in American history; she was close to Presidents Bill Clinton, Al Gore and Hillary Clinton, and is the spiritual adviser to the first African-American (and first Scientologist) in the White House, Corey Booker.
 
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Well, if we are going to regard OTL growth of Scientology as Christianity's, then to have Scientology have the growth of Islam would require L. Ron Hubbard to conquer America.

Well, weird cult and the like we could have they develop a "the world will end, we'll inherit it" thing like Brahma Kumaris. (L. Ron could have contact with them somehow? I am not sure if they had centers in the U.S. at the time already.) Or he just thinks such a thing on his own.

Then he could develop this into a "supply hoarding" thing like "when the time comes we must be ready to rule the world".
So, by the time of a nuclear war, that scientology HQ could have bunkers, food supplies, guns and whatnot for surviving in a wasteland. Other "churches" could have supplies too. Then they'd rule (parts) of America-that-was. Still America though. :D
(Nah, probably it'd be Gold Base and bits of the surrounding area)

The problem is... How would the government act on this "supply gathering" stuff? My guess is that they wouldn't be very keen on it, and we could have something like the Waco siege.
 
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I dislike Scientology as well, but it is in fact a religion. There's such a thing as bad religions.

Bad Religion music rocks. Maybe we can combine the two in theory? Have Ron attack the modern world as destroying the soul, by pollution of Earth, food, TV, everything. Wasn't there a leftwing Catholic ideology (not official, think it was in South America?) of fighting for the poor in the 60's/70's? Thinking that but an emphasis on the middle class, who in the late 50's/60's start losing faith as nuclear fallout, DDT, and the such appear?
 
Yeah, this. Not having the current scheme where you have to pay more to get more into the religion would definitely help.

Getting rid of some of the cult-like elements, like the stalking/harassing of ex-members, would be really helpful.

Perhaps you could have independent Scientologists (which exist) form some sort of rival, non-cultish church. It might take a while, but eventually this new Scientologist church could put a nicer face on the faith, and overshadow the "official" church, survival of inevitable legal challenges permitting.

This is a huge problem requiring that Hubbard be out for a motive other than personal wealth and power. The whole enterprise was started to make money. The only reason he turned what was originally a self-help cult into a "religion" was to avoid the IRS.
 
Well, weird cult and the like we could have they develop a "the world will end, we'll inherit it" thing like Brahma Kumaris. (L. Ron could have contact with them somehow? I am not sure if they had centers in the U.S. at the time already.) Or he just thinks such a thing on his own.

Then he could develop this into a "supply hoarding" thing like "when the time comes we must be ready to rule the world".
So, by the time of a nuclear war, that scientology HQ could have bunkers, food supplies, guns and whatnot for surviving in a wasteland. Other "churches" could have supplies too. Then they'd rule (parts) of America-that-was. Still America though. :D
(Nah, probably it'd be Gold Base and bits of the surrounding area)

The problem is... How would the government act on this "supply gathering" stuff? My guess is that they wouldn't be very keen on it, and we could have something like the Waco siege.

Usually those sorts actually believe in their predictions. All indications are that LRH didn't believe his own BS.
 

Cook

Banned
And frankly even as a lapsed catholic the comparison between the catholic church and Scientology is just offensive.

So the discussion turns to an organisation raking in $8 Billion per year that is fighting legal battles on three continents covering everything from child molestation to slavery and you find a comparison to Scientology offensive?

If you cast doubt on the status of a religion because of its origins then we run into some serious issues with the three monotheistic religions; Judaism’s origins have no archaeological back-up, there’s no substantiation to Jesus’s life and the scriptures not only are in conflict with known events in the Roman Empire, but are also in disagreement with each other, and there are accusations of opiates and hallucinogenic mushrooms in the life of Mohamed.

As to the beliefs of Scientologists; spaceships from the centre of the galaxy that looked like DC-10s, spirits of aliens dumped into volcanos by an evil scientist etc. looked at impartially from outside they don’t sound all that much from a giant wooden boat big enough to carry two of every animal on the planet for forty days during a globe encompassing flood, a deity that turns women into salt because they disobey their husbands, burning talking bushes… or the current ritual of a man able to turn small pieces of stale bread into the flesh of his saviour just by saying a few words.

The deciding point on whether something is a religion or not is that its followers believe it to be, not what outsiders consider appropriate or not; you either accept freedom of religion or you don't.

Which brings us back to the problem presented by the original post: make Church of Scientology at least as successful as the Church of Latter-Day Saints; at which point various AH.com members with over inflated opinions of their own importance would be more reluctant to try derailing the thread.
 
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NothingNow

Banned
Wasn't there a leftwing Catholic ideology (not official, think it was in South America?) of fighting for the poor in the 60's/70's?

Liberation Theology. It's still around, and it's still a conservative boogeyman. It's also the first time in Latin American history that the church sided with the poor and the natives outside of Paraguay.

The deciding point on whether something is a religion or not is that its followers believe it to be, not what outsiders consider appropriate or not; you either accept freedom of religion or you don't.
The problem with that is, the question what separates a proper New Religious Movement from a Cult. It's usually taken to be a mix of dysfunctional practices, including shady recruiting practices, enforced social isolation of adherents, and well, violence towards apostates. Scientology frankly is the posterchild for a good number of those practices.

Which brings us back to the problem presented by the original post: make Church of Scientology at least as successful as the Church or Latter-Day Saints; at which point various AH.com members with over inflated opinions of their own importance would be more reluctant to try derailing the thread.
You'd literally have to start over from a clean sheet. Heinlein could do it, but everything that Hubbard created generally contradicts the sort of things that you'd need to make for a functional group that could grow quickly and wasn't reliant on blackmail and legal action to "defend" itself from critics.
 

Cook

Banned
It's usually taken to be a mix of dysfunctional practices, including shady recruiting practices, enforced social isolation of adherents, and well, violence towards apostates. Scientology frankly is the posterchild for a good number of those practices.
And the early Christian Church and Islam aren't? You either need to reassess you list or look at the history of those religions more closely.
 

NothingNow

Banned
And the early Christian Church and Islam aren't? You either need to reassess you list or look at the history of those religions more closely.

Actually, for the time, neither was all that shady a group.

Very much out of the mainstream, but in particular with early islam, a major part of it's appeal was how it also provided a source of mutual protection for the clanless, and neither group enforced it's own separation from the wider world.

Hell, the Muslims weren't even violent for the era, being famously benevolent after a battle.
 
Usually those sorts actually believe in their predictions. All indications are that LRH didn't believe his own BS.

He does not need to believe it. He may be simply preaching the "We are to rule the purified world. Now give me your Magnums and canned beans" thing with the faithful going "Amen", but de facto he may be plotting to overthrow L.A. from Gold Base. Or the U.S..

Of course, such a thing would be impossible to achieve, and even LRH was not that crazy, so you'd need a nuttier Elron to do that. Perhaps he could survive a few years more and go full old senile preacher (like Fred Phelps) or, if you really dislike the man, you could have an earlier POD (so as to have the symptons arising by the 80s or so) and having Elron contracting syphilis or something else that causes dementia.

Then... Bingo. Waco-like situation.
...Man. Demented LRH rioting against Los Angeles? That'd give a good TL.
 
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