AHC: Save Western Roman Empire

That's why I inserted 2 points. First it's Honorius who makes Ataulf magister militum, a common practise in 5th century Western Roman Empire and his nephew co-emperor (Caesar). With the power resting with the magister militum - and in the 5th century a magister militum could quite well decide who would become emperor, see Ricimer - Ataulf could have managed to have young Theodosius proclaimed Augustus, if he strikes a deal and accepts that someone from the opposition becomes co-emperor (Caesar).

Well, it could work, technically at least, but it's not resolving any point that made the WRE fall. The new caesr would be still limited by the land-owners (senators, bishops) interests, and as Sitilicho, would be likely murdered if he tried to impose his policy. In fact, his barbarian origin would likely legitimize a posteriori such attempt.
 
Stilicho seemed to handle the barbarian invasions rather well so I assume it would be best to keep him alive and have minister Olympius (who persuaded Emperor Honorius that Stilicho was plotting against him and had to be be removed from power and executed) meet an unfotunate premature end.

Yeah, I was trying to summarize what's been discussed -- truth is, I have a spot for Stilichio, and really would like to see him succeed in keeping all Rome's enemies at bay and avoid the whole coup-de-tat. Also, Basileus Giorgios and LCS seem to know a lot more about this than I do, so... :eek:

How about this for a PoD -- Honorius keeps his base in Milan in 402, meaning there's a contingent of forces to defend Italy when Radagaisus tries to invade; the Goth besieges Milan, giving Stilichio enough time to use his regular forces, along with Alaric's, to break the siege (so no desperate raising of troops that divert resources from the Rhine frontier). The siege ends up killing Honorius, while his half-Vandal guardian is able to defeat the Italian invaders, without the victory being accompanied by invasions and revolts in Gaul. Oh, and now he's the heir apparent for the Western Roman Empire, and his political enemies are likely divided over who exactly should be Emperor instead...
 
Not very long. The problems of the Western Empire were insuperable to a very real extent, due to the combination of it being increasingly useless territory for the Empire to defend, its sheer expanse, and it suffering much more from the lack of a truly Roman civil institution than did the East. When Rome's politics were "may the best legion win" then that could and did scar the West worse because the West had much less room to fall than did the East, which was wealthier and more populous.
 
I'm thinking again about my "Stlichio saves the WRE" idea -- seems the real turning point in his career was when the invasion by Radagaisus made him so desperate for troops he depleted the Rhine, so if he can draw on Alaric's Goths around this time instead...
 
Not very long. The problems of the Western Empire were insuperable to a very real extent, due to the combination of it being increasingly useless territory for the Empire to defend, its sheer expanse, and it suffering much more from the lack of a truly Roman civil institution than did the East. When Rome's politics were "may the best legion win" then that could and did scar the West worse because the West had much less room to fall than did the East, which was wealthier and more populous.

I am not sure the west side was all useless - you had still prime farming lands in Gauls by example, all that...
 
I am not sure the west side was all useless - you had still prime farming lands in Gauls by example, all that...

Hm, so does this mean the WRE has to keep Gaul to survive? I was reconciled to the province likely being (albeit, later) lost to invaders, but would that leave what remains so undesirable?
 
Hm, so does this mean the WRE has to keep Gaul to survive? I was reconciled to the province likely being (albeit, later) lost to invaders, but would that leave what remains so undesirable?

I thinks there was worthwhile parts on a strict cold economical sense - France fared not too bad later in medieval days with the agriculture turn of economy...

So, I wonders if with 'reforms', somes parts of the Western Empire could have survived, or evolved into a Romance Empire. Accepting lost undefendable regions for now, turning to a defending and settling, growing economical model, the integration and fusion of barbarians elements, etc, etc. Not sure if I am clear there and if it is even possible, but I think some core could survive.

Britain is a given for now to be lost, probably, belgium doomed as well possibly, modern Swisterland could be defendable but maybe some self ruling area, MAYBE Iberian peninsula and all that. AND this would be a Romance, mixed cultures state, not anymore 'pure Rome'.
 
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