AHC: Save a lost or destroyed city

Discussion in 'Alternate History Discussion: Before 1900' started by Night Gaul, Nov 2, 2019.

  1. SolRon Member

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    I meant for Carthage to shift to that in time for the the third Punic war, not the first two ones. While doing so would still result in heavy losses for Carthage, it would be more of a reverse of the second Punic war, with Rome winning victories here and there, but not enough to take Carthage itself.
    Eventually, the costs might make Rome just declare a hollow victory, just like Pyrrhus did and bail out of there, leaving Carthage weakened, but alive to fight another day.
    About Tunisia, I meant the fertile parts of (I should have been more exact, sorry about that), but yeah, the rest of the north African coast was important as well, so that could be added as well.
     
  2. Heldenhammer For Are We Not All Sigmar's Heirs?

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    I doubt this scenario could play out. It would take a few Cannae's for this play out, which wouldn't be possible given the state of the Punic military and economy by the 3rd Punic. It took 44 years to pay the reparations, which was made hard to pay by their lack of a navy and the fall of their colonies. If Carthage could afford to reform and raise an army, the treaty signed after the 2nd Punic meant they couldn't raise an army without Roman permission. And Carthage already owned the coast from the central Libyans coast to the Pillars of Hercules.
     
  3. A Most Sovereign Lady Princess of the Kingdom of Maryland

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    Cahokia.
     
  4. P L Richards Well-Known Member

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    In Britain the Roman city of Calleva Atrebatum (Silchester in modern Hampshire) was an important centre and major road junction. It seems to have survived quite late into post-Roman times, to about the middle of the sixth century, but after it was depopulated it was never reoccupied, unlike most other Roman cities in Britain; Silchester has never been more than a tiny hamlet. Indeed it has been theorised that the site may have been deliberately cursed to prevent it being reoccupied. So, butterfly away any such curse, and the Plague of Justinian, which may have led to the final collapse of urban society in post-Roman Britain, and Silchester today could be at least a decent sized market town, if not something larger.
     
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  5. Nomis Nosnibor Well-Known Member

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    sarmizegetusa

    I think it would have been interesting to see a powerful independent Thracian polity develop beyond antiquity.
     
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  6. SolRon Member

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    The thing was Carthage believed that the treaty ended with the last payment, though the Romans still thought it applied.
    IIRC Carthage did raise an army to attack the Numidians, who were Roman allies. Not only did Carthage lose that conflict badly, the other Punic cities lost faith in it. As for the Romans, they were displeased that Carthage had not consulted them before attacking their ally, which was a cause for the 3rd Punic war.
    In ATL, Carthage could reform it's army in time to win against the Numidians, in turn instilling confidence with the other Punic cities. So when the Romans do come, it'll be a completely different situation than in OTL
     
  7. Byzantion Well-Known Member

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    Maybe if they recuit from Phoenician populations of their other colonies aswell ?
     
  8. BlackCataphract576 Member

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    Aug 15, 2019
    Or maybe Alexander spares it. I'm not too familiar with the event but I can see it become another Alexandria.
     
  9. kasumigenx Well-Known Member

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    Tondo, prevent it from being sacked by Bolkiah, it would have saved the Majapahit as they would still have access to the Japanese trade.
     
  10. Heldenhammer For Are We Not All Sigmar's Heirs?

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    They raised it only because they gathered all their remaining funds to recruit a trash army that was under equippeda trained poorly.
    An army reform would've been noticed by the Romans, who probably had many agents, and would've led to an earlier destruction of the city. There is no viable way for Carthage to recover from the 2nd Punic.
    All their colonies were taken over by Numidians or Rome post-2nd Punic. And the cities around Carthage were of dubious loyalty.
     
  11. oshron Emperor of Rplegacy

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    iirc, it was actually because Alexander and his buddies got really drunk at their celebration for capturing the city and he was really regretful of it when he sobered up
     
  12. Jimbo808 Well-Known Member

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    Saved cities doesn't necessarily mean prosperous cities. Climate has some bearing on this.
     
  13. M79 Well-Known Member

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    You chose...wisely.
     
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  14. metalinvader665 Well-Known Member

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    I think Roman Carthage was basically a continuation of Punic Carthage. Punic continued to be spoken there (and actually continued to spread in the region into early Imperial times, with Punic poetry being written into the late 4th century) and the city was among the most important in the Roman Republic and later Roman Empire. Only after the Arab conquest was it sidelined. Seems inevitable in a no-*Maghreb Islam TL that Carthage retains its status (thanks to economics and its religious supremacy) and maybe even in a post-Islamic TL Carthage might replace Tunis and retain its importance. My ideal post-Roman polity there would span at least from the Gulf of Arzew to the border of Cyrenaica and incorporate Sicily (ideally the whole Maghreb, Sicily, Andalusia, the Baleares, Sardinia, and Corsica under this polity plus the Saharan portions of Niger and Mali), with its national language the African Romance dialect of Carthage. In the modern age, Carthage would become like Rome, Madrid, or a more developed version of OTL Tunis, Algiers, or Alexandria.

    As to how to save lost cities, a lot of Mississippian centers, most notably Cahokia, would have benefitted from better soil practices and a better source of protein. Beans (which fix nitrogen and have protein) were not as widely grown as they could've been, while no source of animal manure was available. Domesticated ducks and turkeys in the Mississippian civilisation would've been huge since they give both protein and are a good source of manure. So many centers might've survived in the Mississippi Basin. Drought and European disease would've nailed them in the early 16th century but there would've been no Empty Quarter and De Soto would've encountered much more powerful states (and possibly never returned considering Spanish actions). Much of the Eastern United States if colonised would've been more like Latin America in terms of demographics.
     
  15. Frrf Well-Known Member

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    Another effect of either the Achaemenid or Alexandrian empire surviving would be the continued importance of Babylon. With the religious centre of Etemenanki preserved/rebuilt and no Selukeia-Ctestiphon to siphon off its populace and economic importance it would probably survive until either someone destroyed it or the present day.
     
  16. Nathan Bernacki Well-Known Member

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    Mount Vesuvius dies for some reason. Pompeii and Herculaneum survive into the modern day.
     
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  17. George Carty Member

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    Didn't the Muslims demolish Carthage (and recycle much of its stone to expand Tunis IIRC) because they viewed it as dangerously exposed to Byzantine naval attack?
     
  18. BlueFlowwer Well-Known Member

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    Save Troy for god's sake.
     
  19. M79 Well-Known Member

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    Inka retreat into Amazon a bit farther, rediscovery in the 19th century, Machu Picchu becomes exclusive eco-resort with small permanent population?
     
  20. Neoteros Dux Mediolani

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    Piacenza.

    Had Francesco Sforza not razed it to the ground during his campaign to conquer Milan for himself, today it would be far bigger than it is now.