AHC: Sassanid descendants becoming ruling dynasty of China

jocay

Banned
As we know, Peroz III, the son of the last Sassanid king of Persia, had retreated to the protection of the ruling Tang in China. He was a Tang general and was head of an Iranian government-in-exile. He had a son named Narsieh who would spend much of his time fighting the Arabs. Likewise with his uncle Bahram and his cousin Khosrau but not much is known beyond that. Your challenge is to have a descendant of Yazdegerd III (either from Narsieh or Khosrau) seize power and become Emperor of China.
 
Perhaps if the Sassanid clan is placed as the protector general of the Anxi Prefecture? They use this base of power to assemble some support and take the throne through some method?
 
They would need to follow the same path An Lushan (a Sogdian) did. Take advantage of naive Tang rulers, gain prestige wherever it appears, and revolt at the best opportunity and strike down the Tang dynasty. Perhaps they could be important lieutenants of An Lushan, and if/when An himself dies, claim his mantle and become the true founders of the next dynasty (probably called the Yan dynasty as An Lushan called his dynasty) in China.
 
Maybe he establishes himself as ruler in a border area between China and the caliphate and later one of his daughters marry into the royal family. Her son, as a relative to the emperor seizes power and makes himself emperor.
 
Not really, the Sassanids would quickly assimilate to Chinese culture and religion though they may show preference to Zoroastrians in the first 30 are so years of their dynasty.
Not necessarily so.Zoroastrianism can survive,but it will need to be modified to the Chinese taste,just like Buddhism.Stuff like incest will need to go.
They would need to follow the same path An Lushan (a Sogdian) did. Take advantage of naive Tang rulers, gain prestige wherever it appears, and revolt at the best opportunity and strike down the Tang dynasty. Perhaps they could be important lieutenants of An Lushan, and if/when An himself dies, claim his mantle and become the true founders of the next dynasty (probably called the Yan dynasty as An Lushan called his dynasty) in China.
The better way would be to attain prominence in the Tang court to be recognised as a noble clan through generations of civil and military service,then have one member serve as a military governor of one region,and one the Tang Dynasty falls,unify China and become emperor.Outright military revolts rarely succeed in China.I’d say that coups are even more successful than outright rebellions.
 
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without knowing terribly much about the Sassanids or earlier Chinese history, (it's on my to-do list) i concur with previously-made points. an eventual ruling dynasty of Chinese Sassanids would probably be Persian like how the Mughals were Turkic Mongols and would almost certainly have converted to a Chinese religion instead of staying Zoroastrian, unless there was some tiny bit of influence from it where they had some ceremonial item or what have you which was distinctly Persian/Zoroastrian. probably a good analogy for how they eventually rule China ITTL would be the Qing, though probably at an earlier time.
 
Well, it has survived in India for centuries.

Well, being non-threatening and somewhat attuned to the local culture certainly helped. For Zoroastrianism to survive in any form in China, it either needs to be adhered to a non-threatening and/or assimilated minority, or enjoy strong support from the Chinese Emperor for a long time. I think the former is slightly more foolproof.
 
Not necessarily so.Zoroastrianism can survive,but it will need to be modified to the Chinese taste,just like Buddhism.Stuff like incest will need to go.
Invest was never encouraged If I'm correct. Rather it was passages from the Avestas going on about creation which were mmisenterpreted as encouraging its practice.
 
Invest was never encouraged If I'm correct. Rather it was passages from the Avestas going on about creation which were mmisenterpreted as encouraging its practice.
No, Sasanian-era Zoroastrian texts quite literally say that xwēdōdah (parent-child or sibling incest) is one of the most pious and holiest acts possible. From the Encyclopedia Iranica article:

According to Dēnkard 3.80, the three kinds of “linkage” (ham-paywandīh) achieved in xwēdōdah are “father and daughter,” “son and birth-mother” (burdār), and “brother and sister” (ed. Dresden, p. [53]; ed. Madan, p. 73; tr. de Menasce, pp. 85-86). Similarly, the Pahlavi Rivāyat gives the hierarchy of xwēdōdah as one’s mother, daughter, sister, but the rules are complicated by the fact that one’s sister may also be one’s daughter (ed. Williams, chap. 8d). According to Dēnkard 3.80, the linkage will be the more efficient the closer the relationship between the two is: “of the same species” (ham-srādag), “closely connected” (nazd-paywand), and nabānazdišt, an Avestan term of uncertain meaning, but approximately “closest relatives” (ed. Dresden, p. [53]; ed. Madan, p. 73; tr. de Menasce, p. 86). The best xwēdōdah is that by which a son sires a son-brother with his birth mother, because, having come from her body, he is nearer to his origin; thus offspring from siblings with the same parents is more valuable than when the parents are different......

Practicing xwēdōdah cancels the most grievous sins and saves from hell (Pahlavi Rivāyat, ed., Williams, chap. 8b1-3). According to the Rivāyat of Ēmēd son of Ašwahišt, if someone is destined for hell, the milk and goodness of the divine xwēdōdah he has performed will keep his soul away from hell, as if it were surrounded by a fortification (Rivāyat 27, ed. Anklesaria, pp. 104-5; ed. Safa-Isfehani, 1980, pp. 189-92, 1997, pp. 176-79). In the Mēnōy xrad, performing xwēdōdah for the love of one’s soul is listed among the good deeds that lead to paradise (wahišt; Mēnōy xrad 36.12; ed. Anklesaria, p. 107), and, according to the Pahlavi Rivāyat, if a person maintains a xwēdōdah marriage for four years, he is assured of Garōdmān or, at least, paradise......​


The Mādayān ī hazār dādestān, a Sasanian law code, also talks about incest as something that's clearly very normal:

MHD. 104.9-14: a man assigns a golden object to his wife and a silver one to his daughter. If he marries his daughter, the question arises whether she is entitled to both objects.

MHD. 105.5-10: a man has left the two parts of his grounds, one to his son’s first-born (if a boy?) and one to his daughter’s first-born (irrespective of gender). The son and daughter get married and have a daughter, then a son, and the daughter inherits first, since they can have only one first-born child.​


And the Rivāyat of Ādur-Farnbay son of Farroxzād, a book of Zoroastrian religious law, has entries discussing the necessity of a father violently raping his daughter:

RAF. 20.1-2: if a man “needs” (andar abāyēd) to marry his daughter or his sister and they do not agree, may he use violence (stahmb)? And if he does, will the merit of the xwēdōdah accrue to him? The legal authority says yes to both, but adds that, if the husband does not agree, then he is not authorized to do it, and, if he does, then it is a sin.​


Zoroastrian incest isn't just a CK2 meme, it was very real.
 
No, Sasanian-era Zoroastrian texts quite literally say that xwēdōdah (parent-child or sibling incest) is one of the most pious and holiest acts possible. From the Encyclopedia Iranica article:

According to Dēnkard 3.80, the three kinds of “linkage” (ham-paywandīh) achieved in xwēdōdah are “father and daughter,” “son and birth-mother” (burdār), and “brother and sister” (ed. Dresden, p. [53]; ed. Madan, p. 73; tr. de Menasce, pp. 85-86). Similarly, the Pahlavi Rivāyat gives the hierarchy of xwēdōdah as one’s mother, daughter, sister, but the rules are complicated by the fact that one’s sister may also be one’s daughter (ed. Williams, chap. 8d). According to Dēnkard 3.80, the linkage will be the more efficient the closer the relationship between the two is: “of the same species” (ham-srādag), “closely connected” (nazd-paywand), and nabānazdišt, an Avestan term of uncertain meaning, but approximately “closest relatives” (ed. Dresden, p. [53]; ed. Madan, p. 73; tr. de Menasce, p. 86). The best xwēdōdah is that by which a son sires a son-brother with his birth mother, because, having come from her body, he is nearer to his origin; thus offspring from siblings with the same parents is more valuable than when the parents are different......

Practicing xwēdōdah cancels the most grievous sins and saves from hell (Pahlavi Rivāyat, ed., Williams, chap. 8b1-3). According to the Rivāyat of Ēmēd son of Ašwahišt, if someone is destined for hell, the milk and goodness of the divine xwēdōdah he has performed will keep his soul away from hell, as if it were surrounded by a fortification (Rivāyat 27, ed. Anklesaria, pp. 104-5; ed. Safa-Isfehani, 1980, pp. 189-92, 1997, pp. 176-79). In the Mēnōy xrad, performing xwēdōdah for the love of one’s soul is listed among the good deeds that lead to paradise (wahišt; Mēnōy xrad 36.12; ed. Anklesaria, p. 107), and, according to the Pahlavi Rivāyat, if a person maintains a xwēdōdah marriage for four years, he is assured of Garōdmān or, at least, paradise......​


The Mādayān ī hazār dādestān, a Sasanian law code, also talks about incest as something that's clearly very normal:

MHD. 104.9-14: a man assigns a golden object to his wife and a silver one to his daughter. If he marries his daughter, the question arises whether she is entitled to both objects.

MHD. 105.5-10: a man has left the two parts of his grounds, one to his son’s first-born (if a boy?) and one to his daughter’s first-born (irrespective of gender). The son and daughter get married and have a daughter, then a son, and the daughter inherits first, since they can have only one first-born child.​


And the Rivāyat of Ādur-Farnbay son of Farroxzād, a book of Zoroastrian religious law, has entries discussing the necessity of a father violently raping his daughter:

RAF. 20.1-2: if a man “needs” (andar abāyēd) to marry his daughter or his sister and they do not agree, may he use violence (stahmb)? And if he does, will the merit of the xwēdōdah accrue to him? The legal authority says yes to both, but adds that, if the husband does not agree, then he is not authorized to do it, and, if he does, then it is a sin.​


Zoroastrian incest isn't just a CK2 meme, it was very real.
Jesus. Always thought it was just something practiced in rural areas of Persia. Was it really so widespread?
 
How often did it actually happen? Since the OTL Zoroastrians aren't known for incest, it seems like it's a belief which could readily be abandoned. Zoroastrianism was always a diverse set of beliefs, from the more orthodox Sassanid Zoroastrianism to Zoroastrianism as practiced by the modern Parsis or the Sogdians or Armenians or indeed by the Chinese. But the Chinese had a distinct view on all religions which entered their land. Chinese Manichaeism as practiced in the Yuan/Early Ming seems to be pretty Buddhist and not very much like the Manichaeism described in Late Antiquity sources in Rome or Persia. Chinese Buddhism itself is not Indian Buddhism. Chinese Nestorianism AFAIK seems typical of Nestorianism, but there's no guarantee that a more successful version wouldn't have had serious internal differences from other Nestorians, much like how Hui Chinese historically had rather distinct views on Islam compared to other Muslims (which continues to this day with the Hui vs Uyghurs).

Islam conquering Persia would obviously cause a huge shock to Zoroastrianism.

No, Sasanian-era Zoroastrian texts quite literally say that xwēdōdah (parent-child or sibling incest) is one of the most pious and holiest acts possible. From the Encyclopedia Iranica article:

According to Dēnkard 3.80, the three kinds of “linkage” (ham-paywandīh) achieved in xwēdōdah are “father and daughter,” “son and birth-mother” (burdār), and “brother and sister” (ed. Dresden, p. [53]; ed. Madan, p. 73; tr. de Menasce, pp. 85-86). Similarly, the Pahlavi Rivāyat gives the hierarchy of xwēdōdah as one’s mother, daughter, sister, but the rules are complicated by the fact that one’s sister may also be one’s daughter (ed. Williams, chap. 8d). According to Dēnkard 3.80, the linkage will be the more efficient the closer the relationship between the two is: “of the same species” (ham-srādag), “closely connected” (nazd-paywand), and nabānazdišt, an Avestan term of uncertain meaning, but approximately “closest relatives” (ed. Dresden, p. [53]; ed. Madan, p. 73; tr. de Menasce, p. 86). The best xwēdōdah is that by which a son sires a son-brother with his birth mother, because, having come from her body, he is nearer to his origin; thus offspring from siblings with the same parents is more valuable than when the parents are different......

Practicing xwēdōdah cancels the most grievous sins and saves from hell (Pahlavi Rivāyat, ed., Williams, chap. 8b1-3). According to the Rivāyat of Ēmēd son of Ašwahišt, if someone is destined for hell, the milk and goodness of the divine xwēdōdah he has performed will keep his soul away from hell, as if it were surrounded by a fortification (Rivāyat 27, ed. Anklesaria, pp. 104-5; ed. Safa-Isfehani, 1980, pp. 189-92, 1997, pp. 176-79). In the Mēnōy xrad, performing xwēdōdah for the love of one’s soul is listed among the good deeds that lead to paradise (wahišt; Mēnōy xrad 36.12; ed. Anklesaria, p. 107), and, according to the Pahlavi Rivāyat, if a person maintains a xwēdōdah marriage for four years, he is assured of Garōdmān or, at least, paradise......​


The Mādayān ī hazār dādestān, a Sasanian law code, also talks about incest as something that's clearly very normal:

MHD. 104.9-14: a man assigns a golden object to his wife and a silver one to his daughter. If he marries his daughter, the question arises whether she is entitled to both objects.

MHD. 105.5-10: a man has left the two parts of his grounds, one to his son’s first-born (if a boy?) and one to his daughter’s first-born (irrespective of gender). The son and daughter get married and have a daughter, then a son, and the daughter inherits first, since they can have only one first-born child.​

And the Rivāyat of Ādur-Farnbay son of Farroxzād, a book of Zoroastrian religious law, has entries discussing the necessity of a father violently raping his daughter:

RAF. 20.1-2: if a man “needs” (andar abāyēd) to marry his daughter or his sister and they do not agree, may he use violence (stahmb)? And if he does, will the merit of the xwēdōdah accrue to him? The legal authority says yes to both, but adds that, if the husband does not agree, then he is not authorized to do it, and, if he does, then it is a sin.​


Zoroastrian incest isn't just a CK2 meme, it was very real.

From what I can tell, this seems like it would be more nuanced in both OTL Zoroastrian communities and especially ATL Zoroastrianism, much like the perspectives on Muhammad and Aisha. Some say Aisha was a teenage girl (or a bit older), some say she was younger. Practically, this example is used to justify the marriage of young girls to older men to this day in Yemen and some other Muslim societies. So even though it's distasteful at face value, there's plenty of room for different interpretations which would have occurred.

There's probably a Darwinian component to this, akin to how Pakistan and some other Middle Eastern nations with very frequent and repeated cousin marriage have a lot of genetic diseases now. Although this was likely common in the past, where repeated marriage of cousins/second cousins occurred in villages the world over. Too much incest is likely to result in the destruction of the kingdom via weak rulers and a weak ruling class.

Also this part from the linked article seems relevant.

A bit surprisingly in view of the rest of the literature, the Pahlavi Rivāyat also tells us that Zarathustra expressed some doubt about the xwēdōdah, pointing out that it appeared to him, like to other people, as a bad and difficult thing, and, even more surprisingly, Ohrmazd answered that he would agree, were it not the best thing of all (ed. Williams, chap. 8o). In what is an elaboration on the Frauuarānē (Yasna 12) in Dēnkard 7.4.5-8, when Zarathustra recommends (franāmišn = Av. frauuar-) xwēdōdah, the Turanians were revealed to feel shame toward this practice (ed. Dresden, pp. 130-31; ed. Madan, pp. 626-27; tr. Molé, pp. 42-43; cf. Macuch, 1991, p. 152, citing the Christian Išōʿboxt that the Mazdayasnians tended to object to xwēdōdah [Sachau, III, pp. 34-35], but Išōʿboxt says this about incest in general, not specifically about the Zoroastrians, although he says Zarathustra was the only one among heresiarchs to have crossed walls inside which God has sealed up incest: human nature, the commandments, and fear of being cursed). Zarathustra’s objection is elaborated upon in Dēnkard 3.80, where the author proposes that beauty and ugliness are relative and differ from time to time and place to place. In some places, he says, it is considered beautiful to be naked, in others ugly. The ancestors thought it was beautiful to shave one’s head, but that is no longer so (ed. Dresden, pp. [57]-[58]; ed. Madan, p. 78; tr. de Menasce, p. 89). The discussion recalls that in the Dissoi logoi (2.15; ca. 400 BCE) about whether things can be good or bad by nature, where the author cites the Persian practice of having sex with (sunímen) one’s mother, daughter, and sister (ed. Robinson, pp. 108-11).

Since it's highly likely the "Turanians" would conquer Persia at least once (if not multiple times, just look at OTL), and rule Persia for at least a few centuries, this idea of sacred marriage would evolve over time. Speaking of China in particular, the Qara Khitai are a good example of a state both Persian and Chinese. The most likely "Persian China" will be by something like An Lushan, so it will be very Chinese, and Zoroastrianism will arrive in a rather different form. Hell, the "Turanians" would be involved in conquering China with this dynasty, since Uyghurs and other Turks plus other non-Han steppe groups could easily be involved in this event.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
There was certainly Iranian contact with China. To get an Iranian ruling class descended from Sassanids(who themselves were probably a mix of Bactrians,Sogdian,Kushans,Persians and remote Greek) we need to have the ruling class in good number and can migrate effectively inbetween where hostile peoples lived which would be a challenge. Plus,to rule a country as big as China,you need to first settle them safely somewhere in the Sino-Sphere then. Then we can see how it unfolds.
 

Albert.Nik

Banned
The best I can think of is the Sassanid ruling class en masse run away to the Tocharian city states where it would be hard for Arabs to go into. Then they form a confederation and create a ruling class/dynasty for China like how Kushans did in India. That would be quite interesting.
Also if possible,try to come up with Chinese sounding names for the Sassanids dynasty like how Kushans were called in Chinese as Guishang.
 
The best I can think of is the Sassanid ruling class en masse run away to the Tocharian city states where it would be hard for Arabs to go into. Then they form a confederation and create a ruling class/dynasty for China like how Kushans did in India. That would be quite interesting.
Also if possible,try to come up with Chinese sounding names for the Sassanids dynasty like how Kushans were called in Chinese as Guishang.

The Kushana however arose in quite a different time. The Sassanids will unlikely be able to raise any sort of Turkic or Tocharian army to conquer more western lands with the Umayyad in its way. It may be slightly possible, but if you could figure a way for the Tang to support a Sassanid army enough and with luck, disunity in the Umayyad eastern front, the Tang May be able to establish a Sassanid tributary in either Kwarezm, Bactria or Khursan. This however, would be a protectorate of the Tang, more an analogous to Western Satraps to the Kushanshahs as opposed the alliance between Han and the Kushanshahs.
 
Could Zoroastrianism survive in China then?
Buddhism managed to thrive as an alien religion (one which was at times imposed from above, particularly by conquest dynasties) so it's possible. Like Buddhism it'd have to take on some Chinese characteristics. Additionally China has never had much religious uniformity so I imagine the Sassanids would have to accept that they wouldn't be able to enforce it as a state religion as they had in Persia.
 
Would it help matters if Emperor Harsha became the Qin Shi Huang of India in this scenario, with him and his successors being allied to the Tang dynasty and thus providing additional protection of a Sassanid tributary (depending on where the Tang are able to establish the latter)?
 
No, Sasanian-era Zoroastrian texts quite literally say that xwēdōdah (parent-child or sibling incest) is one of the most pious and holiest acts possible. From the Encyclopedia Iranica article:

According to Dēnkard 3.80, the three kinds of “linkage” (ham-paywandīh) achieved in xwēdōdah are “father and daughter,” “son and birth-mother” (burdār), and “brother and sister” (ed. Dresden, p. [53]; ed. Madan, p. 73; tr. de Menasce, pp. 85-86). Similarly, the Pahlavi Rivāyat gives the hierarchy of xwēdōdah as one’s mother, daughter, sister, but the rules are complicated by the fact that one’s sister may also be one’s daughter (ed. Williams, chap. 8d). According to Dēnkard 3.80, the linkage will be the more efficient the closer the relationship between the two is: “of the same species” (ham-srādag), “closely connected” (nazd-paywand), and nabānazdišt, an Avestan term of uncertain meaning, but approximately “closest relatives” (ed. Dresden, p. [53]; ed. Madan, p. 73; tr. de Menasce, p. 86). The best xwēdōdah is that by which a son sires a son-brother with his birth mother, because, having come from her body, he is nearer to his origin; thus offspring from siblings with the same parents is more valuable than when the parents are different......

Practicing xwēdōdah cancels the most grievous sins and saves from hell (Pahlavi Rivāyat, ed., Williams, chap. 8b1-3). According to the Rivāyat of Ēmēd son of Ašwahišt, if someone is destined for hell, the milk and goodness of the divine xwēdōdah he has performed will keep his soul away from hell, as if it were surrounded by a fortification (Rivāyat 27, ed. Anklesaria, pp. 104-5; ed. Safa-Isfehani, 1980, pp. 189-92, 1997, pp. 176-79). In the Mēnōy xrad, performing xwēdōdah for the love of one’s soul is listed among the good deeds that lead to paradise (wahišt; Mēnōy xrad 36.12; ed. Anklesaria, p. 107), and, according to the Pahlavi Rivāyat, if a person maintains a xwēdōdah marriage for four years, he is assured of Garōdmān or, at least, paradise......​


The Mādayān ī hazār dādestān, a Sasanian law code, also talks about incest as something that's clearly very normal:

MHD. 104.9-14: a man assigns a golden object to his wife and a silver one to his daughter. If he marries his daughter, the question arises whether she is entitled to both objects.

MHD. 105.5-10: a man has left the two parts of his grounds, one to his son’s first-born (if a boy?) and one to his daughter’s first-born (irrespective of gender). The son and daughter get married and have a daughter, then a son, and the daughter inherits first, since they can have only one first-born child.​


And the Rivāyat of Ādur-Farnbay son of Farroxzād, a book of Zoroastrian religious law, has entries discussing the necessity of a father violently raping his daughter:

RAF. 20.1-2: if a man “needs” (andar abāyēd) to marry his daughter or his sister and they do not agree, may he use violence (stahmb)? And if he does, will the merit of the xwēdōdah accrue to him? The legal authority says yes to both, but adds that, if the husband does not agree, then he is not authorized to do it, and, if he does, then it is a sin.​


Zoroastrian incest isn't just a CK2 meme, it was very real.

More anti Zoroastrian propaganda. It doesn't pass the smell test. Imagine if this was remotely true, the entire Iranian population would collapse in 3 to 5 generations due to lack of any viable offspring.
 
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