AHC: Saint Judas Iscariot

Well, Judas committed a sin, yes. But then he was taken by remorse, at a large degree, since he hanged himself.

You could get a Pope spinning it to make Judas the poster child for the Church's acceptance and second chances. That in death, he accepted Christ and saw his fault, and for that he can be forgiven. That would be a pretty powerful move.

Given the number of kings and other people who became saints after doing things one might frown upon, it might not be too difficult to forgive the suicide Suicide is not one of the commandments, murder is and many murderers became saint (Paul himself persecuted christians).

I think you're on to something. Judas was never universally hated and there's plenty of room for redemption after the fact. For example in the Voyages of St. Brendan from around 900 they find Judas on a rock in the sea and protect him from the demons of hell for a night. There was always some level of understanding for Judas' plight in the Church.
 
There is always the possibility that "gospel of Judas" (assuming it is authentic) is discovered earlier before the codification of canon gospel and law. The result is that in some alt Council of Nicea the gospel of Judas gets included in the holy law where Jesus tells Judas to betray him (or perhaps that he KNOWS he will be betrayed and encourages Judas to go forward who was previously having doubts, I don't remember the gospel TBH) and subsequently gets recognized as the disciple who betrayed his friend against his own wishes for the sake of all mankind, the supreme self-sacrifice.

It doesn't work like that. The COuncil of Nicea wasn't a democratic vote where they put up a bunch of random "scriptures" and okayed one as Scripture and not the other.

The Council of Nicea featured only Apostolic Churches (i.e. the ones that Paul had wrote letters to, Jerusalem, Antioch, etc.). For already 200 years, orthodoxy was a matter of something that made the source of a given doctrine or Scripture extremely relevant. Irenaeus wrote that the heresies of the second century were all popping up from churches that were not apostolic.

So, taking that into account, if every apostolic church had essentially the same Scriptures arguably handed down since apostolic times (with perhaps a few in dispute such as the Shepherd of Hermas, Epistle of James, 1 Clement, Revelation). Hower, the preponderance of these churches did not consider 1 Clement Scripture, yet would consider Revelation Scripture.

Long story short, no chance a second or third century gnostic gospel gets on par with works 100-150 years older than it.
 
This is a real possibility.

With the understanding that for crying out loud the Romans may have tortured him to get the information they wanted. By taking a bribe and going along early in the process, he's just acknowledging the inevitable. Still a special type of sadness, that he betrayed his teacher and spiritual leader.

So, a long time in the desert and Judas is able to understand why he did what he did and to forgive himself. Or, maybe forgive himself before he fully understands.

And maybe he goes on to live a meaningful life afterwards, maybe he builds a community where he's very accepting and nonjudgmental of people.

Maybe it's that he lacked immediate social skills on how to respond to the Romans, the skill of giving a noncomital answer, of not giving information, of taking a 'poker pause' as it were. Maybe he wished he would have said, 'Jesus is okay. But I've left the group. Jesus tends to promise a little too much. I don't think you're going to find him that much of a problem.' But how would he have known this in advance!

Actually, the entire situation could have been a far richer story of forgiveness and redemption.

For this to work, you would have to butterfly away Jesus calling him a devil, son of hell, and etc.
 
For this to work, you would have to butterfly away Jesus calling him a devil, son of hell, and etc.

You don't have to butterfly it away.

Well, it can be left outside the scripture. Or, Jesus is part man (ok, that is a tough question) but Jesus can fail and lose temper, like he did in the temple. Or you know, the time he cursed his Father.

Dammit, discussing Jesus and God, I have no idea where to capitalise and if I say God if it's confusing. Damn you catholic Church and this confusing Holy Trinity!
 
For this to work, you would have to butterfly away Jesus calling him a devil, son of hell, and etc.

Well, Jesus had some unkind words for some of the other apostles. "Get behind me Satan!"

While the biblical account of Judas might make sainthood improbable because of his own suicide (not the betrayal of Christ), the accounts have Jesus clearly stating that his execution by authorities would be necessary to fulfill his purpose of salvation...and they also have Jesus knowing that he will be betrayed and knowing who among his disciples would betray him. This makes the whole story a very moving depiction of divine forces at work to require the human side of Jesus to suffer and die and his friend Judas be the necessary instrument to make this happen. With a slightly different perspective (perhaps a less anti-Jewish one in the early Church - the name "Judas" reinforces the notion of Jews as the betrayers and killers) I could see a Church that eventually acknowledges the conflicted betrayer Judas as a necessary martyr to achieve Christ's mission.
 
You don't have to butterfly it away.

Well, it can be left outside the scripture. Or, Jesus is part man (ok, that is a tough question) but Jesus can fail and lose temper, like he did in the temple. Or you know, the time he cursed his Father.

Dammit, discussing Jesus and God, I have no idea where to capitalise and if I say God if it's confusing. Damn you catholic Church and this confusing Holy Trinity!

Christ is fully man and fully God according to the COuncil of Calcedon. So, whatever He spoke was inerrant though in His incarnate form He was not omniscient (so, he did not know absolutely everything such as the date of His own return, but nothing He did speak of was a lie.)

So, you cannot make Judas a Saint when Christ spoke inerrantly and condemned Judas in very specific terms.

Lastly, you can't change the Scripture because it was fairly well preserved and uniform within the Apostolic historical churches.
 
Well, Jesus had some unkind words for some of the other apostles. "Get behind me Satan!"

I suppose you can make an ATL where Peter's image gets tarnished because of this, but it's a stretch (being that it was more likely connected to Christ's temptations in the wilderness to not die for His people). However, Christ could not be any clearer for Juas, his condemnation is unequivocal several times. So, you would need a POD with different Scriptures right off the bat.
 
Hmm, in the gospel of Marc I do see mention of a guy losing his drapes and running naked after Jesus (Marc 14.49-52) when he's arrested but can't see the insults to Judas, would you have the reference?

Don't think I actually ever read the NT, started a couple time, really need to though.
 
No, I was referring to the insults from Jesus to Judas, can't see them, I already quoted the naked guy above ;)
 
Perhaps a scenario where he gives himself up as "Jesus" but Jesus still ends up crucified despite his sacrifice?
That way he's both vilified - for trying to avoid the crucifixion - but redeemed due to his sacrifice
 
Okay, I can see during the time of the Renaissance and Reformation, someone writing in favor of redeeming Judas and laying out a case that Judas is a complex, textured person, and that we do ourselves a disservice by against him in such a knee-jerk fashion. This essay / sermon / book / passage might also build on the distinction before the action and the person.
 
John 17:12
Luke 22:3
Luke 22:48
John 13:26
Mark 14:20
John 12:6

He was essentially predestined to damnation.

Interesting, but as far as I read, it's not Jesus insulting him, it's more stating the fact, nothing that would keep him from the sacrifice. Besides the perfume thing (which I was always taught was to show he was unspiritual but the text is rather clear) saying he was doomed is also saying he was needed to accomplish the scripture, which is a very important role. Even more than anything, you could spin it more easily, especially in the catholic church. He had free will, you could argue he knew he was doomed but still knew it had to be done and sacrificed himself, even though he couldn't bear it.
To contrast with Peter renouncing Christ three times before the night was up. If you have to choose who is more loyal and worthy in this version, it doesn't leave much margin for Peter.

Not saying that's how it is, but it could be spun that way in dogma which is as important as the bible in Catholic Church (can't speak for other denomination but it's still the leading institutional force in Christianity so I guess that would be enough)
 
As already noted, it is impossible for this to happen by the Council of Niceae. Frankly I'm under the impression that the so-called Gospel of Judas was actually tendentiously translated and one could equally say that it presented an orthodox picture of Judas burning for his sin.

Anyway you would need it to be some really weird heretical cult which somehow succeeds in spreading.
 
Judas Iscariot is a murky figure in Christianity to say the least. That he was edited out has been proposed by Hyam Maccoby as an indication of the triumph of the Pauline over the Petrine Churches. Also, the gospel writers are vague on Judas' fate post-Crucifixion: Matthew saying he committed suicide, and Luke (in Acts) stating that he fell head-first in a field and his bowels gushed out. That when the Gospel of Peter (an Apocryphal work written before the last of the gospels) states that after the Resurrection, Jesus went up the mountain with the twelve.

So, I think you'd need an earlier pod than Nicaea. Maybe an actual reconciliation between Rome and Jerusalem rather than the papering over of differences.

I'll get off my soapbox now:eek:
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IIRC, the thing about the twelve was because they elected a replacement for Judas.

One potential idea is that Judas asks for forgiveness, becomes a founder of Christianity, and becomes a martyr ala Peter. Maybe throw in the Book of Judas, where he writes of his redemption and logs his work in spreading the faith?
 
Well there is always the Red Dwarf episode Lemons for inspiration.

Plot[edit]
After attempting to assemble a Swedish flat-pack "rejuvenation shower", the crew are unexpectedly shot back to Earth, Britain, in AD 23 when the rays hit them accidentally.[1] The Dwarfers need an 8-volt battery to power up their Returner Remote and get home. Remembering a lesson from school Rimmer suggests they make a battery out of potatoes, when Kryten points out Britain in 23 AD doesn't have any potatoes Rimmer suggests making a battery out of lemons but the nearest lemons are in India 4,000 miles away.[2]

Their journey leads them to a crowded market square in India, where they run into a peace-loving do-gooder called Jesus (played by James Baxter).[1] Rimmer is particularly excited about meeting him, as Rimmer has the middle name Judas - when the others question why Rimmer would be given such a negative name, Rimmer explains that his mother belonged to the "Church of Judas", who believe that Judas was Jesus' twin brother and took his place at the Crucifixion, thus allowing Jesus to return after his apparent death. The Dwarfers end up befriending the stranger and eventually wind up back on the ship with the apparent son of God in tow when escaping Romans.[3]

Whilst recovering from a kidney stone removal by the whole Red Dwarf crew, Jesus gets a preview of his status as the central figure of Christianity and is horrified by the number of wars to be waged in his name. Jesus returns to Earth and proceeds to rant against the Ten Commandments,[4] in an attempt to damage his reputation and thus avoid his fate. In a final twist, however, it turns out he is not Jesus of Nazareth, but rather "Jesus of Caesarea", and thus not the son of God at all. Lister advises him to use what he saw in the future to make something of his life - so Jesus starts making and selling bags (which do not exist in AD 23).

While briefly delaying their return to the future so Lister can have a curry, the Dwarfers spot two twin brothers going by the names of Jesus and Judas. Rimmer goes to get up, only to be shouted at by the others and told to stay put.
 
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