AHC: Russian Uberwank

Ok, ok, rich kid, you made your point. :)

You comforted me. Thank you. I feel better now.

Hey - purely accidentally, I assure you! :) Relatively speaking, you're probably better off than I am, what with buying the apartment and all, and at 43 I don't feel much of a kid. But, whatever. Work on that sarcasm, perhaps it will be your key to literary success!

Bruce
 
Getting back on track, if the Manchu Empire was stillborn, might Russia have got ahold of a decent Pacific port rather earlier than OTL? And if we keep Hungary independent, how hard would it be to get a Russian Wallachia-Moldova?

Bruce
 
Getting back on track, if the Manchu Empire was stillborn, might Russia have got ahold of a decent Pacific port rather earlier than OTL? And if we keep Hungary independent, how hard would it be to get a Russian Wallachia-Moldova?

Bruce

That would actually involve nipping the Qing Dynasty in the bud and restoring the Ming. As far as I am concerned, the Pacific port Russia would likely get would be in OTL Port Arthur. Russian Wallachia-Moldova could have given the Russians an additional access to the Balkans and menace the Ottoman Empire at the same time. On the other hand, having a Russian port earlier than Peter the Great's era would actually help with creating an early Russian maritime trade.
 
When did Chamberlain and Daladier ally with Hitler? Munich doesn't really compare with the Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact.

Apples don't really compare with oranges, but they had repeatedly turned down the Soviet attempts to act on a basis of collective security, so we too 'reaped what we sowed'. And of course your statement was highly misleading in some respects (how exactly did the Baltic states, for example, 'protect' the USSR? And what wide definition of 'Allies' are we using?), so by chucking about provocative and dubious statements, you, hohoho, reaped what you sowed.

Perhaps it would be simpler to accept that people fuck up a lot and this is how it is, but that the people reponsible for a given mass-murder are the people who actually did it?

The competence of Russia's leaders has never really been a particularly important detail: they usually win their conflicts by throwing ten times as many people at them as their opponents do, which requires very little competence on the part of their leaders. <- sarcasm

Sarcasm's not very funny when founded on outright lies. Can we name one example of this supposed trend? There have been wars where the Russians could rely only on numbers; they lost 'em. They couldn't even conquer the Circassians relying on numbers. Relying on numbers seldom works for anyone.

I can think of about five instances in Europe. Of these, four were perpetrated, in part, by the fifth. For that reason, while I sympathize with the four, I have no sympathy for the fifth.

This is a ghastly anti-human way of thinking founded on collective guilt. Terry Pratchett put it best: "Remember the attrocity committed before we were born which excuses the second attrocity we are going to commit now!". I don't know what absurd knots of bigotry one must navigate to conclude that the Soviet peoples, the victims of the Soviet regime, deserve 'no sympathy' (what a horrible thing to say) for what was done to them.

Reported.
 
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That would actually involve nipping the Qing Dynasty in the bud and restoring the Ming.

Well, hystorical demography says that Manchu were only 2 mln. people strong concentrated mainly in Southern Manchuria, when they took over ( North & South ) of China in the period 1616-1640es. In the same time despite the Times of Troubles Russia was at least 10 mln. people strong.

SO, I see a not so wankish parallel universe, in which Russia with earlier expansion in Siberia, the Manchu's face entire hosts and host of Cossacks all over Manchuria, but not little groups of dozens to hundreds of men, and Russia which with the COSSACKIZED Mongol and Manchu takes over China.

Per argumentum a fortiori if the lesser can do it, why the greater to not be capable?

As far as I am concerned, the Pacific port Russia would likely get would be in OTL Port Arthur.

Yes, compulsory -- the value of this peninsula is also high due to the fact that the local population is not so concentrtated, the area is good for normal eurasian agriculture, and this area can be easily seeded with multimillion homogenously european / russian population which to self-sustain, even enrich itself from the 100% control over the trade in the triangle China-Korea(s)-Japan, as early as the early 1600es. Early 17th cent. Korea, could be used also as indusrtrial base, ship building ( under european designs ) , logistic supply ... without the "white" populational homogenity of Manchuria to be disrupted...

Lets not forget Hokkaido , too. The Japanese started settling there in 1619 AD.

In longer run we could even see the Russian controlled China to be used for a "waste disposal" container from multi-century grand-scale incremental ethnic cleansing of Central Asia, Mongolia, Manchuria, Korea, even Japan... These mere dozens of millions will disappear without trace if swept into the Chinese mass... leaving their strategically located lands free for euro-populational consolidation.


Russian Wallachia-Moldova could have given the Russians an additional access to the Balkans and menace the Ottoman Empire at the same time
.

I think "cossackization" is the key for uber-wank of Russia, in this direction, too. Perhaps very powerful but unexplored timeline is the one where Ivan the Terrible marries Anna Jaggielon in 1560, after the death of Romanovna, and Ivan the Terrible becoming PLC king in 1570es after the death of Anna's brother.

The more centralized federalization of Poland-Lithuania-Ruthenia and the Muscovy means that none of the drang-nach-ost German political entities won't evolve, and that earlier pan-slavic empire / union is not only quite possible,. but kinda sorta inevitable. Imagine such Slavia, with capital Constantinople and stretching from the Luibeck-Trieste line to Alaska before the end of 17th century.

On the other hand, having a Russian port earlier than Peter the Great's era would actually help with creating an early Russian maritime trade.

I believe the uber-Russia ( or Slavia ) needs three points / ports in order to take the world permanently in its grip. If s.o. interested I can develop the line in accordance with the OTL real realities. These are:

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narvik -- to play strong in the Atlantic and N.America
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_naval_base -- for E.Asia and Pasific
&
3. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chah_Bahar -- for Indian Ocean , E. and S.Africa and S.Asia.
 
Actually, Sophia of Lithuania married Ivan III and had children in OTL. Perhaps some sort of an early Russo-Lithuanian union where Lithuania becomes an Orthodox Christian nation instead of a Catholic one.

On the other hand, I may have already done this challenge with another author. The main goal was for a Russian Constantinople and some colonies in the Pacific.
 
I Blame Communism said:
Sven said:
The competence of Russia's leaders has never really been a particularly important detail: they usually win their conflicts by throwing ten times as many people at them as their opponents do, which requires very little competence on the part of their leaders. <- sarcasm

Sarcasm's not very funny when founded on outright lies. Can we name one example of this supposed trend? There have been wars where the Russians could rely only on numbers; they lost 'em. They couldn't even conquer the Circassians relying on numbers. Relying on numbers seldom works for anyone.

The Great Northern War comes to mind first. Russia's army was massively outclassed by Sweden's, but Russia could bring 40,000 to every battle, while Sweden could only bring 20,000 total, plus allies. Eventually, dumb luck would've won it for Russia.

Same with the Napoleonic War and World War II: Russia's army was always outclassed man-for-man, but they always had more reserves, so they always outlasted their opponents.

Russia has historically suffered higher casualty rates than their opponents in a large proportion of the wars in which they've been involved. I can think of two explanations for this: (1) their own ineptitude; (2) lack of caring for individuals under their regime.

"Being dealt a bad hand of cards" means that any other country put in similar circumstances would have come out with all the same troubles. Do you really think this is the case? I don't. Russia had a lot of failures and shortcomings, but I don't think it's because it had a particularly bad hand dealt to it.

I Blame Communism said:
Sven said:
I can think of about five instances in Europe. Of these, four were perpetrated, in part, by the fifth. For that reason, while I sympathize with the four, I have no sympathy for the fifth.

This is a ghastly anti-human way of thinking founded on collective guilt. Terry Pratchett put it best: "Remember the attrocity committed before we were born which excuses the second attrocity we are going to commit now!". I don't know what absurd knots of bigotry one must navigate to conclude that the Soviet peoples, the victims of the Soviet regime, deserve 'no sympathy' (what a horrible thing to say) for what was done to them.

Reported.


Are you a sports fan? I am. There are teams in every sport I watch that I absolutely loathe. But, I don't go around wishing horrible injuries on their star players just because I want to see the team lose. Granted, I feel no sympathy for the Steelers when Troy Polamalu gets injured, but I feel sympathy for Polamalu, who's a great player and, as I'm told, a terrific human being, and didn't do anything to deserve a sprained ankle or a concussion or a fractured rib.

I certainly don't feel that Russian people deserved to be horribly murdered by Nazis just because they were Russians. I certainly don't feel that people of Russian ethnicity are deserving of suffering by dint of their birth, and I don't feel that what happened to Russians under the Soviet regime was preferable to what happened to Estonians, Latvians, Poles and Lithuanians.

It's possible to partition, because an organization is not the same thing as the individuals that comprise it. I know a few Russians (not many), the majority of whom I find to be rather pleasant, likeable people. But, while reading about history, I can't help but notice that repeated incarnations of the country of Russia have played the role of bully and villain in innumerable international affairs and conflicts since the time of Peter the Great. This leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and leads me to view Russia the same way I view the Pittsburgh Steelers.
 
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Russia have played the role of bully and villain in innumerable international affairs and conflicts since the time of Peter the Great. This leaves a bad taste in my mouth...
I respect your being honest and outspoken.
You are definitely of Swedish origin and that fact explains your attitude:

The Swedish Empire was good - noble Nordic knights in shining armor.
The Russian Empire was bad - stinking goblins like in a Hollywood movie "Lord of the Rings":D
as you said:
(1) their own ineptitude; (2) lack of caring for individuals under their regime.

But from my point of view it was much more simple:
- there were two empires which fought over the Baltics like two hungry dogs. And one dog was as bloodthirsty as the other.
Both empires were bullies and villains. One lost and the other won.

This leaves a bad taste in my mouth when someone views Russia as a villain only because Russia happened to kick his ancestors' Empire' ass.

Work on that sarcasm, perhaps it will be your key to literary success!
That's much better. Lightly and with good humor :)

As for my "literary success" - that will never happen because English is my second language and it sucks.:D
 
The Great Northern War comes to mind first. Russia's army was massively outclassed by Sweden's, but Russia could bring 40,000 to every battle, while Sweden could only bring 20,000 total, plus allies. Eventually, dumb luck would've won it for Russia.

But the Russians 'advanced relying on numbers alone' at Narva and got whalloped. When they won with superior numbers at Poltava it was because they had gotten the Swedes cold, hungry, beyond their supply lines - and that was because their army had proved able to maneuvre the Swedes away from their Baltic hinterland and into the depths of Ukraine.

Obviously numbers are a very important factor in tactics, but the superior use of forces is what creates tactical advantages. The German Blitzkrieg in France in 1940 came down to 'outnumbering' the enemy by concentrating vast numbers of tanks in a very small area. But are they lambasted for 'relying on numbers'? Where the side with superior numbers uses them better, that is apparently human waves, whereas when the side with inferior numbers uses them better that is the work or a military mastermind - assuming, of course, that the person with superior numbers, be it General Montgomery or the Russian nation, is something people wish to slander.

Same with the Napoleonic War and World War II: Russia's army was always outclassed man-for-man, but they always had more reserves, so they always outlasted their opponents.

Actually the Russians were slightly outnumbered in 1812, which is obvious: their population only surpassed that of royal France at approximately that time, and Napoleon was not drawing on royal France but on a Europe-sized empire. On both sides there were formations of dubious value in the field, of course, but the difference in numbers either way was not hugely significant.

As for WW2: if numbers win, why didn't they win in '41?

Russia has historically suffered higher casualty rates than their
opponents in a large proportion of the wars in which they've been involved. I can think of two explanations for this: (1) their own ineptitude; (2) lack of caring for individuals under their regime.

This is astonishingly two-faced. I care so much about the poor muzhiks! After all, they're so inept...

It reminds me, ironically, of the rhetoric of totalitarian regimes towards their subjects.

If the Russians can be discussed as human beings without some sort of genetic stupidity complex, perhaps your claims to care a whit about them can be taken seriously. As it is, you are an odious bigot.

"Being dealt a bad hand of cards" means that any other country put in similar circumstances would have come out with all the same troubles. Do you really think this is the case? I don't. Russia had a lot of failures and shortcomings, but I don't think it's because it had a particularly bad hand dealt to it.

The cards referred to are the forces of demography and geography which ultimately govern destiny. Similar circumstances for my own country, then, would presumably mean that the ancient Gaels and the ancient Slavs swap places before the dawn of the written word.

In which case, yeah, Scotland-in-central-Eurasia will follow the same mutable and complex (this is after all supposed to be alternate history) historical development as Russia-in-central-Eurasia.

But it is easy to spraff.

Are you a sports fan? I am. There are teams in every sport I watch that I absolutely loathe. But, I don't go around wishing horrible injuries on their star players just because I want to see the team lose. Granted, I feel no sympathy for the Steelers when Troy Polamalu gets injured, but I feel sympathy for Polamalu, who's a great player and, as I'm told, a terrific human being, and didn't do anything to deserve a sprained ankle or a concussion or a fractured rib.

I certainly don't feel that Russian people deserved to be horribly murdered by Nazis just because they were Russians. I certainly don't feel that people of Russian ethnicity are deserving of suffering by dint of their birth, and I don't feel that what happened to Russians under the Soviet regime was preferable to what happened to Estonians, Latvians, Poles and Lithuanians.

It's possible to partition, because an organization is not the same thing as the individuals that comprise it. I know a few Russians (not many), the majority of whom I find to be rather pleasant, likeable people. But, while reading about history, I can't help but notice that repeated incarnations of the country of Russia have played the role of bully and villain in innumerable international affairs and conflicts since the time of Peter the Great. This leaves a bad taste in my mouth, and leads me to view Russia the same way I view the Pittsburgh Steelers.

But then you turn around and say the Russians are hereditarily inept, which makes me doubt your claims. After all, I'm not prejudiced, but...!

What is a villain? An unlikable antagonist. Liking is subjective and so, in fact, are antagonists. If we write histories of Russia from a Russian point of view - which is done, but normally by Russians in Russian, so that we in the glorious civilisation of the Anglo-Saxons can safely dismiss it - other people are antagonists.

The great historian Jan Zamoyski is Polish, and not only that he is Polish history: Jan Zamoyskis, his magnate ancestors, frequently held offices of state in the Commonwealth. He writes about Poland from a Polish point of view, but he shows the Russians in his stories, 'antagonists' as they are to the aspirations of his Polish subjects, as subjects in their own right with their own sets of attitudes and motivations which make their behaviour understandable.

Norman Davies is also a great historian and also writes about Poland, and since Christmas I have been tucking into his newest book, which is a tremendous and enlightening read. But the chapter in which he gave a survey of Polish-Lithuanian-Russian history and managed to get from the formation of the Commonwealth to the Deluge without mentioning 1612 whatsoever at all made me roll my eyes. He - perhaps it is natural that a Polanophile shoudl be more given to 'Polish bias' than a Pole, it would explain all my Russian bias, hoho - has drawn a line in his narrative: badness perpetrated by Russians heading west is recounted in gleeful detail and charges language; badness by Poles going east is ignored.

As writers and minds I admire both immensely, but in this particular instance one is the much better example to follow. So what is Zamoyski's trick? He writes very personal history - biography and diplomatic history - and he talks about characters who are people. Davies is writing history over a very long haul, and his 'characters' are nations. But in reality it is people who are people and all people must be treated the same.

What you are doing is treating nations as characters - Russia, which is actually a blob of ink on a map and a collection of confused ideas, is somehow able to be villainous - passing it off on to their inhabitants (who are apparently chronically inept, even if it necessary to spout untruths in support of this assertion), and then turning round and saying that if you were talking about people, which you aren't, you wouldn't appear prejudiced.

If I was talking about my favourite kinds of alcohol I wouldn't have my reputation as a Russophile, but we're not. I am engaging with what you write, which displays malignant prejudice.
 

MSZ

Banned
Apples don't really compare with oranges, but they had repeatedly turned down the Soviet attempts to act on a basis of collective security, so we too 'reaped what we sowed'. And of course your statement was highly misleading in some respects (how exactly did the Baltic states, for example, 'protect' the USSR? And what wide definition of 'Allies' are we using?), so by chucking about provocative and dubious statements, you, hohoho, reaped what you sowed.
Reported.

I'm sorry - what "provocative and dubious statements"? I only pointed out that World War 2 happened because Russia allowed it to happen by signing the before mentioned alliance. You can't seperate the years 1939-1941 and 1941-1945 by claiming "Well, what the russians did was bad, but they didn't want Barbarossa so they are victims." They cooperated with the germans to start the war which eventually reached them as well - it was quite obvious to any observer that without Poland/Lithuania seperating the two powers (thats how they protected it - by denying one access to the other), war between them would occur - or at least highly propable. So the russians gambled, they didn't get the expected outcome, but they got a propable one. You don't really consider someone who loses in a casino a "victim". And you certainly don't consider a country which didn't seek a war or alliances with aggressive states which got one a victim of "reaping what they sow". There is a difference between "predictable outcome" and "unforseen consequences".
 
The metaphor of sport, by the way, was ill-chosen. I come from Scotland and so when I hear somebody say that they for no particular reason 'loathe' a sports-team I am haunted by visions of folk being stabbed in alleys after 11 o'clock.

That is my country's own stupid problem, but it is also perhaps a lesson about the dangers of any kind of tribalism.

I'm sorry - what "provocative and dubious statements"? I only pointed out that World War 2 happened because Russia allowed it to happen by signing the before mentioned alliance.

1) Attributing the actions of a totalitarian regime to its people and saying they therefore deserved to be horribly killed. No doubt I am going to get an outraged denial now, but that is what the language says and language is a treacherous thing.

2) Using different strokes for different folks.

You can't seperate the years 1939-1941 and 1941-1945 by claiming "Well, what the russians did was bad, but they didn't want Barbarossa so they are victims." They cooperated with the germans to start the war which eventually reached them as well - it was quite obvious to any observer that without Poland/Lithuania seperating the two powers (thats how they protected it - by denying one access to the other), war between them would occur - or at least highly propable. So the russians gambled, they didn't get the expected outcome, but they got a propable one. You don't really consider someone who loses in a casino a "victim". And you certainly don't consider a country which didn't seek a war or alliances with aggressive states which got one a victim of "reaping what they sow". There is a difference between "predictable outcome" and "unforseen consequences".

And once again what of, ah, everybody else? Should Chamberlain not have foreseen that if he undermined Germany's most powerful enemy in central Europe, they would only use this as a way to speed up their march of conquest? Did Britain - and we elected the poor chap, after all - not then 'reap what we sowed', the outcome which is 'predictable' to us who happen to live in the dying hours of 2011? (Mind you, I thought it was alternate history and therefore we were allowed to change outcomes, but what do I even know.)

Two queries:

1) What alternative course would you propose for the Soviet regime, exactly, from a self-interested point of view and as much as possible without the benefit of hindsight?

2) Did Petrov, Popov, and Ivanov somehow deserve whatever they got? Come to that, did John, Jimmy, and Owen?
 
Meh. It's as poor as Mexico per capita, not very democratic, and has less than 1/2 the population of the US and falling further behind in numbers all the time. It's doing snazzy by the standards of, say, Pakistan, but not so much by those of western Europe or the Anglosphere, or east Asia for that matter. It easily could be doing better.

I'll note Russia seems well on its way to becoming Number One Superpower by century's end in Jareds "Decades of Darkness..."

Bruce

Russian population started growing in 2009
 
The way I've created the foundations for a more "happy" and succesful Russia in my longer TL is that I bypassed the process of Russia uniting into a single tsardom with a semi-religious manifest destiny, as happened in OTL. I've also strenghtened the importance of some of the Russian stateletes outside of Moscow. OTL has been a Moscow-wank from the 15th century onward. I wanted to prove that not only Muscovite princes can be beneficial to Russia. Furthermore, Russia doesn't need to be uber-big to be rich, prosperous and well-developed.

Please link it.

I just had a bunch of dirty thoughts pop into my head right about now. :eek:

Watch Axis Powers Hetalia :cool:
 
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Russian population started growing in 2009

Not my point. I had heard it was showing some feeble [1] signs of non-immigration-based growth, but the US is growing a lot faster, and is likely to remain faster-growing for quite some time to come barring some awful catastrophe, such as Newt Gingrich becoming president for three terms.

Bruce

[1] And possibly temporary: wait until the shrunken female cohort of the 90s demographic bottom point reach child-rearing age
 
Not my point. I had heard it was showing some feeble [1] signs of non-immigration-based growth, but the US is growing a lot faster, and is likely to remain faster-growing for quite some time to come barring some awful catastrophe, such as Newt Gingrich becoming president for three terms.

Bruce

[1] And possibly temporary: wait until the shrunken female cohort of the 90s demographic bottom point reach child-rearing age

I believe your point was that Russia was going towards a social collapse that it cannot recover from. I pointed out that is not happening as Russia has recovered a lot from that collapse. Also, the US has the advantage of having immigrants, illegal and legal (Mexicans and other 'Latinos') as well as native ethnic groups (Mormons) who have a cultural trend for population growth, something Russia is less advantageous with (issues with illegal central asian migrants)
 
I believe your point was that Russia was going towards a social collapse that it cannot recover from. I pointed out that is not happening as Russia has recovered a lot from that collapse.

Where did I say Russia was going towards an irreversible social collapse? I said screwed up, not Dooooomed. :confused:

Bruce
 
So slow population growth is "Screwed" :confused:

(yes, I know other factors but those are being fixed too)_

Screwed up =/= screwed :mad: One implies that presently things are a mess: the other that things will remain so for at least a very long time, or will get worse.

(And as to how successfully fixed? Well, like Mao said about the French revolution, it's too soon to say. :D )

Bruce
 
Can we somehow have a Russian Pashtun region? From Central Asia to Kutch. That'll do wonders if you butterfly away EIC dominance and replace the British hegemony of India with French. The Russians have a free hand over Persia.
 
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