AHC: Ruin Columbus Day; Have 5 Nations Colonize America before 1492

Saphroneth

Banned
There are quite a number of other pictures on the website above. You can see it yourself

Wow. So, two societies, a thousand years apart, made circles.
The above pictures have the patterns cut by the incisions, which implies that the incisions are damage. They are also not regular and not similar between the two.

The lower pictures have the incisions be a repeated and regular thing.

The only element of common design in both of those is that they are hollow circles. Are you seriously claiming that only the Middle Kingdom is capable of inventing the circle? :p
 
The Kingdom of Hawaii? The Rapa Nui? Hell, you could argue that they did it even IOTL if we're counting Greenland as a colony in the Americas, then shouldn't Hawaii and Easter Island also be counted as American? Besides, we already know that the Polynesians made it to South America in the 14th century IOTL, but simply elected not to establish colonies. All it would have taken was a single decision by an individual- the simplest POD of all.

What made you think I was counting Greenland? There are artifacts in North America of Viking Origin.

I wouldn't count Hawaii or Easter, but you can if you want.

My argument against Polynesians doing it is that they just didn't have the sort of population to establish colonisation, or the reason. OTL European Nations had plenty of reason to discover and then later Colonise the Americas.
 
A looong time ago someone did a post trying to get Chinese colonisation of western North America; as always the problem was motive. Why bother?

At that time I pointed out the the voyages of Vitus Bering were succesfully paid for by the sale of sea otter fur to China; and in fact the entire settlement of Russian Alaska was paid for that way. The Chinese really, really liked sea otter fur.

If an expedition went north far enough (after the Chinese obtained some by trade through Japan, maybe) interest would grow, more expeditions could be sent, traders would move in and as the otters were hunted to extinction, they'd have to move farther south along the coast until they finally reached some area worth inhabiting- say, the Fraser River delta and southern Vancouver Island- helped by bouts of flu and other diseases wiping out the natives.
 

SinghKing

Banned
I wouldn't count Hawaii or Easter, but you can if you want.

My argument against Polynesians doing it is that they just didn't have the sort of population to establish colonisation, or the reason. OTL European Nations had plenty of reason to discover and then later Colonise the Americas.

There is actually now solid evidence that the Polynesians sailed to South America multiple times before Columbus did, leaving discernible genetic markers of the indigenous peoples of South America among the Easter Islanders as irrefutable proof.

(Reuters) - They lived on a remote dot of land in the middle of the Pacific, 2,300 miles (3,700 km) west of South America and 1,100 miles (1,770 km) from the closest island, erecting huge stone figures that still stare enigmatically from the hillsides.

But the ancient Polynesian people who populated Easter Island, or Rapa Nui, were not as isolated as long believed. Scientists who conducted a genetic study, published on Thursday in the journal Current Biology, found these ancient people had significant contact with Native American populations hundreds of years before the first Westerners reached the island in 1722.

The Rapa Nui people created a unique culture best known for the 900 monumental head-and-torso stone statues known as moai erected around Easter Island. The culture flourished starting around 1200 until falling into decline by the 16th century.

Genetic data on 27 Easter Island natives indicated that interbreeding between the Rapa Nui and native people in South America occurred roughly between 1300 and 1500.

"We found evidence of gene flow between this population and Native American populations, suggesting an ancient ocean migration route between Polynesia and the Americas," said geneticist Anna-Sapfo Malaspinas of the Center for GeoGenetics at the University of Copenhagen, who led the study.

The genetic evidence indicates either that Rapa Nui people traveled to South America or that Native Americans journeyed to Easter Island. The researchers said it probably was the Rapa Nui people making the arduous ocean round trips.

"It seems most likely that they voyaged from Rapa Nui to South America and brought South Americans back to Rapa Nui and admixed with them," said Mark Stoneking, a geneticist with Germany's Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology who collaborated on a related study of Brazil's indigenous Botocudo people. "So it will be interesting to see if in further studies any signal of Polynesian, Rapa Nui ancestry can be found in South Americans."

In making their way to South America and back, the Rapa Nui people may have spent perilous weeks in wooden outrigger canoes.

The researchers concluded that the intermixing occurred 19 to 23 generations ago. They said Rapa Nui people are not believed to have started mixing with Europeans until much later, the 19th century. Malaspinas said the genetic ancestry of today's Rapa Nui people is roughly 75 percent Polynesian, 15 percent European and 10 percent Native American.

A second study, also published in Thursday's issue of Current Biology, illustrates another case of Polynesians venturing into South America. Two ancient human skulls from Brazil's indigenous Botocudo people, known for the large wooden disks they wore in their lips and ears, belonged to people who were genetically Polynesian, with no detectable Native American ancestry.

"How the two Polynesian individuals belonging to the Botocudos came into Brazil is the million-dollar question," said University of Copenhagen geneticist Eske Willerslev of the Center for GeoGenetics, who led the study on the Botocudos.

The findings suggest these Polynesians reached South America and made their way to Brazil, either landing on the western coast of the continent and crossing the interior or voyaging around Tierra del Fuego and up the east coast, Stoneking said.

"In either event it is an amazing story," he said.
 
A looong time ago someone did a post trying to get Chinese colonisation of western North America; as always the problem was motive. Why bother?

At that time I pointed out the the voyages of Vitus Bering were succesfully paid for by the sale of sea otter fur to China; and in fact the entire settlement of Russian Alaska was paid for that way. The Chinese really, really liked sea otter fur.

If an expedition went north far enough (after the Chinese obtained some by trade through Japan, maybe) interest would grow, more expeditions could be sent, traders would move in and as the otters were hunted to extinction, they'd have to move farther south along the coast until they finally reached some area worth inhabiting- say, the Fraser River delta and southern Vancouver Island- helped by bouts of flu and other diseases wiping out the natives.

That was you! I tried to find that thread agian several time when the subject came up but my memory failed me on the details.
 
Where do you get those maps from ?

How about this map :

*snip*

Kuroshio current => North Pacific current => Alaskan current => California current

It certainly doesn't look much difficult to what can be seen from the large map above.

I've replied about the icelandic saga in my previous post.

The map projection is deceiving you - that apparently short travel is eleven thousand kilometers long. And all of it open sea. On the other hand, from Scandinavia to North America via Iceland and Greenland it's a more paltry 4600 kilometers - and hugging the coastlines as much as possible.
 

SinghKing

Banned
The map projection is deceiving you - that apparently short travel is eleven thousand kilometers long. And all of it open sea. On the other hand, from Scandinavia to North America via Iceland and Greenland it's a more paltry 4600 kilometers - and hugging the coastlines as much as possible.

So, has anyone taken a look at the irrefutable scientific evidence which I offered in my last post, proving that limited colonisation and ocean migration of peoples across the Pacific did indeed occur IOTL?
 
So, has anyone taken a look at the irrefutable scientific evidence which I offered in my last post, proving that limited colonisation and ocean migration of peoples across the Pacific did indeed occur IOTL?

Neither limited colonisation nor oceanic migrations are well-organized expeditions on a Zheng-he scale. That's what I was pointing at.
 

SinghKing

Banned
Neither limited colonisation nor oceanic migrations are well-organized expeditions on a Zheng-he scale. That's what I was pointing at.

Neither were the Vikings' settlements in Newfoundland. The Irish proposal certainly wouldn't have been; and even Columbus' expeditions IOTL didn't really count as well-organised expeditions on a Zheng He scale.

If a single Chinese merchant explorer had set out across the Pacific to explore a new trade route, in a manner akin to Columbus (as opposed to a huge state-sponsored armada, akin to Zheng He's fleet or that of the Malians), then it may have been plausible- especially if the Polynesians' intermittent trade and migration routes to and from the Americas (which persisted between 1300 and 1500CE IOTL, on Rapa Nui at least) are still ongoing at this time.

If they make contact with the Polynesians along the way (or on a previous excursion), then the Polynesians' oral accounts would provide solid evidence that viable trade routes to the continent do indeed exist, with the lure of the trade goods brought back from the new world by the Polynesians (incl. Jade, more valuable than Gold to the Chinese) providing enough incentive to make the trip worth the risk. And that's not just true for the Chinese either- if we use the Polynesians as viable intermediaries who could have passed on the word about the Americas' existence, then the Majapahit Empire could potentially have been an even more viable possibility.

The Majapahit Empire was comprised of 98 tributaries, stretching from Sumatra to New Guinea; estimated to consist of present day Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, southern Thailand, Sulu Archipelago, Manila, and East Timor- some Polynesian communities in Melanesia fell within their administration even IOTL. Geographical and economic constraints suggest that rather than a regular centralised authority, the outer states of the Majapahit Empire were most likely to have been connected mainly by trade connections, which was probably a royal monopoly. Although the Majapahit rulers extended their power over other islands and destroyed neighboring kingdoms, their focus seems to have been on controlling and gaining a larger share of the commercial trade that passed through the archipelago.

The wealth of attracted foreign merchants from far and wide, including Indians, Khmers, Siamese, and Chinese among others. In the later period of the Empire (1300 to 1500CE- exactly the period we're looking for) Yingyai Shenglan mentioned that large numbers of Chinese traders and Muslim merchants from the west (from Arabia and India, but mostly from Muslim states in Sumatra and Malay peninsula) had settled in important Majapahit port cities, such as Tuban, Gresik and Hujung Galuh (Surabaya). If any of these traders decides to try and look for new trade opportunities further west early on, and Majapahit traders begin to exploit the existing island trade routes in Polynesia, then those traders will eventually hear accounts from the Rapa Nui about the vast continent which lies across the ocean, and one of them will eventually go on a merchant expedition of discovery to bring back wealth for himself. Why couldn't one of them potentially establish a Majapahit trading colony in the Americas before Columbus gets there?
 
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The Majapahit Empire was comprised of 98 tributaries, stretching from Sumatra to New Guinea; estimated to consist of present day Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, southern Thailand, Sulu Archipelago, Manila, and East Timor- some Polynesian communities in Melanesia fell within their administration even IOTL. Geographical and economic constraints suggest that rather than a regular centralised authority, the outer states of the Majapahit Empire were most likely to have been connected mainly by trade connections, which was probably a royal monopoly. Although the Majapahit rulers extended their power over other islands and destroyed neighboring kingdoms, their focus seems to have been on controlling and gaining a larger share of the commercial trade that passed through the archipelago.

The wealth of attracted foreign merchants from far and wide, including Indians, Khmers, Siamese, and Chinese among others. In the later period of the Empire (1300 to 1500CE- exactly the period we're looking for) Yingyai Shenglan mentioned that large numbers of Chinese traders and Muslim merchants from the west (from Arabia and India, but mostly from Muslim states in Sumatra and Malay peninsula) had settled in important Majapahit port cities, such as Tuban, Gresik and Hujung Galuh (Surabaya). If any of these traders decides to try and look for new trade opportunities further west early on, and Majapahit traders begin to exploit the existing island trade routes in Polynesia, then those traders will eventually hear accounts from the Rapa Nui about the vast continent which lies across the ocean, and one of them will eventually go on a merchant expedition of discovery to bring back wealth for himself. Why couldn't one of them potentially establish a Majapahit trading colony in the Americas before Columbus gets there?

The Majapahit Polynesia connection is one AH which I've been considering as the connection is very easily made. The Tongan Empire extended back through the Carolines and could have island hoped back through to Palau and the Phillipines just as Majapahit traders could have island hoped to Polynesia. From there the Tongan Empire also maintained trade links to Marquesas and the Cook Islands which provides the central Polynesian bridge to Rapa Nui, Hawaii and the Americas.

There is also a legend from Tupuai of a great god-king named Maru who came in many ships. Maru is considered a god of abundance and some researchers have linked the legend to a possible visit by Tupac Amaru. Which might be rendered Tupa a Maru by the locals meaning Scallop (shell) of Maru.
 
That was you! I tried to find that thread agian several time when the subject came up but my memory failed me on the details.

Not quite- I posted a timeline slightly earlier trying to get North America divided east-west instead of north- south, with the west coast being the equivalent of Canada i.e. settled by Loyalists after the Americans took Quebec and Nova Scotia in the Revolution -"New Albion". The POD was an earlier discovery of the value of the sea otter trade by the British (I'm going to finish that one of these days...after I retire?)

THEN somebody else posted a TL about trying to get Chinese colonisation in North America and I suggested the sea otter motivation as a bit of help.
 
Actually, I quite like that logic.
I think I'm going to start insisting that the city of Jerusalem and the Roman Empire do not/never existed because the Bible is so controversial and full of archaeological holes.
:D:p
 
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Are your own map(s) up to scale ?

The main purpose of the map is to show the directions of the currents and now you complain about the accuracy of the map ?

From this website :

There are quite a number of other pictures on the website above. You can see it yourself

When you attached oceanic current maps and I replied back with other map that disproved yours, you complained about the accuracy of the map while the most important thing is the direction of the currents.

When you said about the Saga of the Icelanders as a proof, I showed you that even experts have different opinions about it and I also pointed out that like 'Classic of Mountain and Sea', it is a combination between literary fiction and historical records.

Later on you ask about archeology proof.

Later on you talk about China having enough land so there is no incentive to colonize other parts of the world, etc.


Despite your talk about not having to do with being "eurocentric" which I did not mention about in the first place, your posts indicate otherwise.

Mike Xu's been on this beat for a while, and as far as I know he still has an incredibly long way away from finding anything definitive. The utter lack of bronze artifacts, the reliance on Olmec civilization just magically appearing when the Shang collapsed, and the fact that the writing systems have been shown to be wholly unrelated. Sure there are a few characters in both that have a similarity on the face of things, but there's zero evidence that they directly relate to each other, when you look at a wider sampling it's very clear the two are very different, and that was pretty much the only thing the theory even had.

It's less absurd than Menzie's utterly insane claims in regards to Zheng He but that's not really saying much. I'd be more inclined to buy into to Chang Kuang-chih's idea that there might've been a much richer culture around the time that the Native Americans started arriving in the Americas before I bought into anything either Xu or Menzies says.

As far as the Kuroshio current goes, I don't think the Shang had the naval knowledge to really get anywhere on it, but I could be wrong. I don't know a lot about the era in regards to sea development.
 
If they make contact with the Polynesians along the way (or on a previous excursion), then the Polynesians' oral accounts would provide solid evidence that viable trade routes to the continent do indeed exist, with the lure of the trade goods brought back from the new world by the Polynesians (incl. Jade, more valuable than Gold to the Chinese) providing enough incentive to make the trip worth the risk. And that's not just true for the Chinese either- if we use the Polynesians as viable intermediaries who could have passed on the word about the Americas' existence, then the Majapahit Empire could potentially have been an even more viable possibility.

The Majapahit Empire was comprised of 98 tributaries, stretching from Sumatra to New Guinea; estimated to consist of present day Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Brunei, southern Thailand, Sulu Archipelago, Manila, and East Timor- some Polynesian communities in Melanesia fell within their administration even IOTL. Geographical and economic constraints suggest that rather than a regular centralised authority, the outer states of the Majapahit Empire were most likely to have been connected mainly by trade connections, which was probably a royal monopoly. Although the Majapahit rulers extended their power over other islands and destroyed neighboring kingdoms, their focus seems to have been on controlling and gaining a larger share of the commercial trade that passed through the archipelago.

The wealth of attracted foreign merchants from far and wide, including Indians, Khmers, Siamese, and Chinese among others. In the later period of the Empire (1300 to 1500CE- exactly the period we're looking for) Yingyai Shenglan mentioned that large numbers of Chinese traders and Muslim merchants from the west (from Arabia and India, but mostly from Muslim states in Sumatra and Malay peninsula) had settled in important Majapahit port cities, such as Tuban, Gresik and Hujung Galuh (Surabaya). If any of these traders decides to try and look for new trade opportunities further west early on, and Majapahit traders begin to exploit the existing island trade routes in Polynesia, then those traders will eventually hear accounts from the Rapa Nui about the vast continent which lies across the ocean, and one of them will eventually go on a merchant expedition of discovery to bring back wealth for himself. Why couldn't one of them potentially establish a Majapahit trading colony in the Americas before Columbus gets there?

Source? I am curious and a search turns out nothing.

There is also a legend from Tupuai of a great god-king named Maru who came in many ships. Maru is considered a god of abundance and some researchers have linked the legend to a possible visit by Tupac Amaru. Which might be rendered Tupa a Maru by the locals meaning Scallop (shell) of Maru.

Same as above.

WHAT ABOUT MOROCCO?

Why would Morocco have an incentive to get to the Americas? It's not like their dhows could have made it anyways.
 
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