AHC: Rome survives in the West, but not in the East.

How would the WRE be able to survive at least until 1453, with the ERE falling sometime around the late 400s or into the 500s at the most?

The WRE for one, does not have to contend against the Arsacids and then the Sassanids, that has to count for something, right? Perhaps the barbarians cross and settle across the Danube rather than the Rhine, or/and Attila deposes the Emperor in the East ala Odoacer?
 
How would the WRE be able to survive at least until 1453, with the ERE falling sometime around the late 400s or into the 500s at the most?

The WRE for one, does not have to contend against the Arsacids and then the Sassanids, that has to count for something, right? Perhaps the barbarians cross and settle across the Danube rather than the Rhine, or/and Attila deposes the Emperor in the East ala Odoacer?

Maybe Constantinople and Adrianopolis fell to the invading Ostrogoths.
 
Last edited:
The challenge is more getting the east to fall than getting the west to survive. The West surviving is easy enough. As for the east, first you have to get rid of the capital being Constantinople, so likely butterfly Constantine. It needs to remain Nikomedia, otherwise any invading force is going to be stopped in its tracks at a nearly impenetrable fortress.
 
The ERE supports the WRE in holding Africa and Italy. The WRE empire survives, but the east doesn't have the needed manpower and money to defend against Huns and Sassanids.
 
The ERE supports the WRE in holding Africa and Italy. The WRE empire survives, but the east doesn't have the needed manpower and money to defend against Huns and Sassanids.

Or the so called "White Huns" invade from the East, after pillaging the Sassanids and the Maura-Gupta Empire...
 
I'd call this a pretty tall order. Somehow, what you've got to do is keep the Germanic tribes from migrating into the West and dismantling the whole thing.

However, I don't think it's entirely impossible. One thing you can do, ironically, is prevent Attila the Hun's death. He and the Huns largely kept the Ostrogoths, Gepids, and other Germanic tribes that later dismantled what was left of the West from doing so. If the Huns focused more of their energy on the East, which is something they'd done plenty of times before, you can save the West.

The scenario might go like this:

Attila lives long enough to name an heir/ heirs. Let's say 20 more years of his life has resulted in the mass destruction of the ERE frontier, while also bolstering the WRE's alliance with the Visigoths and has given Aetius a longer life as well.

The ERE is greatly weakened and loses a lot of ground in the East to the Persians after much of their manpower is spent fighting the Huns in the North. By 520 they have fallen apart, and all of their Asian provinces, and Egypt, are under Persian rule while tribes pour into the Balkans, repopulating much of the land emptied by the Huns. South Germanic might come to be an analogue to South Slavic in the region.

Now, at this point the WRE has already lost Britain, Africa, and Hispania. They essentially have held onto Illyria, parts of Gaul, and Italia. They might come to lose Gaul in coming decades, but manage to keep their enemies beyond the Alps.
 
I'd call this a pretty tall order. Somehow, what you've got to do is keep the Germanic tribes from migrating into the West and dismantling the whole thing.

However, I don't think it's entirely impossible. One thing you can do, ironically, is prevent Attila the Hun's death. He and the Huns largely kept the Ostrogoths, Gepids, and other Germanic tribes that later dismantled what was left of the West from doing so. If the Huns focused more of their energy on the East, which is something they'd done plenty of times before, you can save the West.

The scenario might go like this:

Attila lives long enough to name an heir/ heirs. Let's say 20 more years of his life has resulted in the mass destruction of the ERE frontier, while also bolstering the WRE's alliance with the Visigoths and has given Aetius a longer life as well.

The ERE is greatly weakened and loses a lot of ground in the East to the Persians after much of their manpower is spent fighting the Huns in the North. By 520 they have fallen apart, and all of their Asian provinces, and Egypt, are under Persian rule while tribes pour into the Balkans, repopulating much of the land emptied by the Huns. South Germanic might come to be an analogue to South Slavic in the region.

Now, at this point the WRE has already lost Britain, Africa, and Hispania. They essentially have held onto Illyria, parts of Gaul, and Italia. They might come to lose Gaul in coming decades, but manage to keep their enemies beyond the Alps.

What about having the WRE hold off in Gallia and Italy.
 
What about having the WRE hold off in Gallia and Italy.

The Rhine is a hard frontier to keep up with the low manpower they had at the time, not to mention the Visigoths already having control of Aquitaine from Tolosa at this point.

They could, perhaps, reconquer it later, but I think for the WRE to survive, it would need to consolidate its power back in Italy and Illyria to get through the 4th-7th centuries
 
The challenge is more getting the east to fall than getting the west to survive. The West surviving is easy enough. As for the east, first you have to get rid of the capital being Constantinople, so likely butterfly Constantine. It needs to remain Nikomedia, otherwise any invading force is going to be stopped in its tracks at a nearly impenetrable fortress.

I don't think it's really that impenetrable really. I think the problem was not that Constantinople was God-Level shit with unbreakable walls for most of its existence, but rather most of its enemies came from the East, rather than West, which is why it never really fell. First they had to cross Anatolia, a fairly mountainous region dealing with the native Greek populations, and then got to the Bosphorus, with Constantinople proper on the other side. Now, any group who manages to make it that far can do whatever they want on the eastern bank, but that won't win them the western side, so they have to cross. So, unless they had superior naval force, which most didn't, they could be crushed then and there. Now, if a group comes from the west, a tribe powerful enough to get it there, would probably have a fairly easy time of getting into Constantinople, especially since the ERE was weaker now than almost any other time.

I'd call this a pretty tall order. Somehow, what you've got to do is keep the Germanic tribes from migrating into the West and dismantling the whole thing.

However, I don't think it's entirely impossible. One thing you can do, ironically, is prevent Attila the Hun's death. He and the Huns largely kept the Ostrogoths, Gepids, and other Germanic tribes that later dismantled what was left of the West from doing so. If the Huns focused more of their energy on the East, which is something they'd done plenty of times before, you can save the West.

The scenario might go like this:

Attila lives long enough to name an heir/ heirs. Let's say 20 more years of his life has resulted in the mass destruction of the ERE frontier, while also bolstering the WRE's alliance with the Visigoths and has given Aetius a longer life as well.

The ERE is greatly weakened and loses a lot of ground in the East to the Persians after much of their manpower is spent fighting the Huns in the North. By 520 they have fallen apart, and all of their Asian provinces, and Egypt, are under Persian rule while tribes pour into the Balkans, repopulating much of the land emptied by the Huns. South Germanic might come to be an analogue to South Slavic in the region.

Now, at this point the WRE has already lost Britain, Africa, and Hispania. They essentially have held onto Illyria, parts of Gaul, and Italia. They might come to lose Gaul in coming decades, but manage to keep their enemies beyond the Alps.

I like this one quite a bit.
 
The Rhine is a hard frontier to keep up with the low manpower they had at the time, not to mention the Visigoths already having control of Aquitaine from Tolosa at this point.

They could, perhaps, reconquer it later, but I think for the WRE to survive, it would need to consolidate its power back in Italy and Illyria to get through the 4th-7th centuries

What about the WRE moving its center to Gallia.
 
I don't think it's really that impenetrable really. I think the problem was not that Constantinople was God-Level shit with unbreakable walls for most of its existence, but rather most of its enemies came from the East, rather than West, which is why it never really fell. First they had to cross Anatolia, a fairly mountainous region dealing with the native Greek populations, and then got to the Bosphorus, with Constantinople proper on the other side. Now, any group who manages to make it that far can do whatever they want on the eastern bank, but that won't win them the western side, so they have to cross. So, unless they had superior naval force, which most didn't, they could be crushed then and there. Now, if a group comes from the west, a tribe powerful enough to get it there, would probably have a fairly easy time of getting into Constantinople, especially since the ERE was weaker now than almost any other time.
Either way, you need a navy to take Constantinople, whether from the landward side or seaboard side. You have to be able to properly siege the city, or any attack on the city will almost certianly falter, because the Constantinople can be supplied at will. The problem was, none of the ERE's enemies had capable fleets.



As for Errnge's post, the best idea here should be to try to funnel all those tribes that funneled into the WRE, across the Danube frontier and into the Balkans instead. Attila was an obstacle to that. So while Attila being alive keeps the WRE in the best shape, it also keeps the ERE in the best shape as well.
 
What about the WRE moving its center to Gallia.

Why would they do that? It's too hard to defend.

As for Errnge's post, the best idea here should be to try to funnel all those tribes that funneled into the WRE, across the Danube frontier and into the Balkans instead. Attila was an obstacle to that. So while Attila being alive keeps the WRE in the best shape, it also keeps the ERE in the best shape as well.

Well, Attila's going to die eventually. And even if one of his sons manages to hold on to control after that (doubtful), the tribes are going to break off after Attila dies. And by this point in time, South of the Danube is the place to go. Even OTL that happened. Roman Italia and Illyria were never invaded by Germanic tribes the way other regions were. The Ostrogoths invaded the Kingdom of Italy at the ERE's behest. With a radically weakened ERE, I don't see that happening, but rather an Ostrogothic state getting carved out in the Balkans.
 
Top