AHC: Romans conquer Mesopotamia and all of Germania

What sequence of events would it take for the Romans to establish permanent frontiers along the Zagros Mountains and the Vistula/Dneister river systems, along with a Hadrian's Wall-like structure cutting across the Jutland peninsula along the modern border that divides Denmark and Germany?

I am thinking of doing a timeline that includes this scenario along with a successful Boudicca's Rebellion that manages to throw Rome out of the British isles permanently.
 
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The simplest (and the most common) answer is:
Germania - successful Augustus' expedition into Germania (victory at Teutoburg Forest), and he ordered his successors to conquer all of Germania...
Mesopotamia - a longer-lived Trajan who permanently annexed Armenia and Mesopomia, and told his successors to keep those conquests...

Btw something that I want to ask, why the Roman Empire, that strong enough to conquer those two regions, would let the Boudicca's rebellion succeed? (let alone turning their conquest to Britannia in the first place)
 
Germania was in the process of Romanisation when Teutoburg happened. Butterfly the battle or have it turn out to be a decisive victory for Varus and you would have secured long term Roman influence over Germania.
 
Germania was in the process of Romanisation when Teutoburg happened. Butterfly the battle or have it turn out to be a decisive victory for Varus and you would have secured long term Roman influence over Germania.


The only way for the roman's to win at teutoberg is if something happenned to the ambusher's or if the Roman's had some knowledge beforehand.
 
Btw something that I want to ask, why the Roman Empire, that strong enough to conquer those two regions, would let the Boudicca's rebellion succeed? (let alone turning their conquest to Britannia in the first place)

I happened to mention her because (at least to me) she just seems a more sympathetic and compelling figure as a wronged woman than either Arminius or Vercingetorix who are both seasoned warriors by the time they rebel against Roman rule. I can be a romantic at times....

I do grant, though, that logic and reason are good arguments against including a successful Boudicca's rebellion.
 
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The only way for the roman's to win at teutoberg is if something happenned to the ambusher's or if the Roman's had some knowledge beforehand.
That last part might be easy to do actually, all it would take is a single traitor and a slightly better roman spy network and you could have the Romans be informed with enough time to turn the battle into a German route, right?

As far as Mesopotamia is concerned, a longer lived Trajan and have his succescors be adamant about maintaining control of the region will do the trick.

The most interesting question though is of course what effect these new territories would have on the later history of the empire :D I'm thinking with so much more territory, the eventual division of the empire would come even sooner then it did OTL. Perhaps the 3rd century would not see a re-unified Empire, but rather a permanent Gallic-German Empire and and a permanent and much larger Palmyrene Empire?
 

Eurofed

Banned
Perhaps the 3rd century would not see a re-unified Empire, but rather a permanent Gallic-German Empire and and a permanent and much larger Palmyrene Empire?

OTOH the impact and consequences of the 3rd century crisis (and of the 5th century one) are going to be much lesser if there is a non-existent Germanic barbarian threat and a crippled Sassanid one.
 
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Exactly, While a case could be made for overreach, The increased revenues from the conquered lands, the subduing of potential hostile populations, and militarily the extra manpower with a better defense line at the Elbe then Rome had at the Rhine should make the empire last longer, unless of course we see a greater level of incompetence in the empires leaders.
 
I happened to mention her because (at least to me) she just seems a more sympathetic and compelling figure as a wronged woman than either Arminius or Vercingetorix who are both seasoned warriors by the time they rebel against Roman rule. I can be a romantic at times....

I do grant, though, that logic and reason are good arguments against including a successful Boudicca's rebellion.

You should check out the books by Manda scott called:
Boudica: Dreaming the Eagle
Boudica: Dreaming the Bull
Boudica: Dreaming the Hound
Boudica: Dreaming the Serpent Spear

I am currently reading Boudica: Dreaming the Bull, but i will be done in about a week
 
Exactly, While a case could be made for overreach, The increased revenues from the conquered lands, the subduing of potential hostile populations, and militarily the extra manpower with a better defense line at the Elbe then Rome had at the Rhine should make the empire last longer, unless of course we see a greater level of incompetence in the empires leaders.

Pretty much what I have in mind -I am aiming to have Rome become much like China in that though it may occasionally be overrun by barbarians and riven by civil war upon dynastic collapse, it maintains itself as a cohesive entity that always comes back together again upon the establishment of a new dynasty.

In addition, I am also looking to integrate a thread in which a Greco-Roman version of Hinduism evolves from the many cults that flood into the empire upon its establishment with the reign of Augustus. Christianity and Islam do emerge but they remain local cults (alongside Judaism) in the Levantine and Arabian desert.

You should check out the books by Manda scott called:
Boudica: Dreaming the Eagle
Boudica: Dreaming the Bull
Boudica: Dreaming the Hound
Boudica: Dreaming the Serpent Spear

I am currently reading Boudica: Dreaming the Bull, but i will be done in about a week

How good are the series?
 
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How good are the series?

so far i really like them, it focuses on Boudica (called Breaca since Boudica means 'bringer of victory'), as well as here husband Caradoc, her Half-Brother Ban (Now Julius Valerius Corvus), Her best friend Airmid, Her children: Cunomar and Cygfa, and the emperors of Roman at the times of her life (i think their were like 5)

Lots of plot twists and it is not Alternate History though, which makes it that much more awesome

There is another series also, which is set in the same universe, but it focuses on Rome a few years after the Rebellion
 

Eurofed

Banned
Pretty much what I have in mind -I am aiming to have Rome become much like China in that though it may occasionally be overrun by barbarians and riven by civil war upon dynastic collapse, it maintains itself as a cohesive entity that always comes back together again upon the establishment of a new dynasty.

That's the by far most likely outcome for a Rome that conquers Mesopotamia and all of Germania. The external-threat critical mass won't simply be there to push the empire beyond the threshold of irreversible decay. And the longer it lasts, the stronger the pull to cohesion shall become, like China. For an optimal result, you ought to have the empire conquer Nubia-Axum-Arabia, so the potential Arab threat, too, shall be removed.

In addition, I am also looking to integrate a thread in which a Greco-Roman version of Hinduism evolves from the many cults that flood into the empire upon its establishment with the reign of Augustus. Christianity and Islam do emerge but they remain local cults (alongside Judaism) in the Levantine and Arabian desert.

Seems a rather nifty idea, just make it a syncretist Greco-Roman-German-Celtic-Egyptian version of Hinduism, the various major forms of European/Mediterranean Politheism thrown together with ideas derived from Greco-Roman philosophy and imported from India to make the Roman homebrew version of Hinduism that as the state religion of a successful Rome would give the Abrahamic religions a run for their money. It is very likely that with a successful Rome, Christianity, assuming it is not butterflied away, which is quite possible with a PoD in Augustus' time, would have never achieved critical mass. The welfare and spiritual relief it provided amidst the trouble of the Empire's decline was a critical part of its rise. As for Islam, it is sure to be butterflied away if Rome conquers Arabia, but even if it doesn't, Muslim would-be conquerors shall never be more than a border nuisance for a strong Roman empire.
 
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I would argue that it would be much more difficult for Rome to recover from collapse and splits than China. Too many mountains in Europe, and the various centers are too widely dispersed.
 
how about one german gets lost and ends up in a roman bath house. after bathing for 20 minuets he is converted to their lifestyle and gives away all the information he knows.
 

Eurofed

Banned
I would argue that it would be much more difficult for Rome to recover from collapse and splits than China. Too many mountains in Europe, and the various centers are too widely dispersed.

The northern half of continental Europe is a big nice plain, you can easily go round the Med by sea, and the strategic barrier value of the Alps and the Pyrenees is way overrated, they never were a serious obstacle for Romans or any other army at their level of organization.

Post-Roman Europe was way difficult to be conquered because would-be conquerors were too disorganized, faced too much nationalist resistance, were too balanced in power with all the other European powers, faced too strong extra-continental powers, or a combo of the above. Mountains and center dispersion weren't a significant issue. Roman splinters won't have any of these problems, and as a matter of fact, Roman civil wars showed that to reconquer the empire back to unity again and again wasn't too difficult, if anything the trouble was to stop the next general from rebelling too. Adding Germania and Mesopotamia to the empire isn't going to change this pattern substantially.
 

While I'm wholeheartedly agree with most (if not all) of your arguments, Eurofed, there are still some problems about East-West division of the Empire...
The western (or northern, in this ATL) part will become increasingly Germanic (or Slavic, or even Nordic), while the eastern part will become increasingly Hellenic, or even Persian in nature...
The West also more sparsely populated and have less wealth than the East, thus sharpening the division...
Is there any effective way to solve this problem...?
 

Eurofed

Banned
While I'm wholeheartedly agree with most (if not all) of your arguments, Eurofed, there are still some problems about East-West division of the Empire...
The western (or northern, in this ATL) part will become increasingly Germanic (or Slavic, or even Nordic), while the eastern part will become increasingly Hellenic, or even Persian in nature...
The West also more sparsely populated and have less wealth than the East, thus sharpening the division...
Is there any effective way to solve this problem...?

Well, as a matter of fact I do recognize that while with these borders, the OTL political and cultural fragmentation of Europe is way implausible, there still is a substantial likelihood that during a dynastic cycle or another, Rome might get permanently divided along the East-West split. The Latin-Greek fault line was apparently enduring and it might be the basis for an enduring division. Nonetheless, Rome showed a very strong political and cultural self-identity that crossed the linguistic division, so it is also quite possible that the pull to unity is stronger than the East-West divide.

It could easily go both ways, in different TLs, depending on which butterflies one picks.

Some nitpicks: while the northern half is indeed going to be mainly Celtic-Germanic ethnically, linguistically it is going to be a Latin sea. IOTL Latin all but wiped out Celtic languages in Roman areas, and there is no reasonable justification to expect it would be different for Germanic ones. ITTL Germanic languages would only survive in Scandinavia and quite likely in Sarmatia thanks to the migration of Gothic tribes (ironically, Latinization of Germany most likely means Germanization of Russia). Likewise, while the eastern half would be an Hellenic-Egyptian-Semitic-Persian ethnic hodgepodge, it would be a Greek sea linguistically. Persian might or might not become and remain a significant Imperial regional language (although its long-term ability to withstand replacement by Greek is rather questionable) only if Rome eventually goes and conquers Persia.

As for relative wealth of the two halves, it is true to a degree and for a time, but over time the balance is going to evolve towards parity, especially with the addition of Germania. Europe in a successful Rome cum Germania is going to skip the Dark Ages economic and social collapse (China shows that dynastic crises of its sort were bad for society but nowhere that bad) and immediately progress from the early Imperial period to the equivalent of the High/Late Middle Ages without feudalism and without a technological gradient with the East.
 

Eurofed

Banned
Making the Empire bigger isn't the best idea....

When it turns potential invaders into loyal taxpayers and recruits for the Legions, it most definitely is.

The domestic stability troubles of Rome were entirely related to its political system, not to its size.
 
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