AHC: Roman Legions Remain in Britain

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@RodentRevolution

So why bother changing most of your equipment to suit naval use if you aren't expected to fight naval battles in the first place?First off,there's most likely only enough ships to transport a small portion of your troops.Secondly,if you are invading someone in Ireland or Scotland,you most likely won't be fighting D-Day style battles.Most landings in this era were met unopposed.

Well not to belabour the point but I have not, I merely pointed out the Romans had experience of naval warfare, that most sailors historically were at best mediocre swimmers and if you fall off a boat in a battle even a good swimmer might not be feeling too hot.

You then as I read it queried the strategic system under discussion. Roman equipment seems fine to me and if they were to reduce the amount of metal gear they would probably go with wool type objects rather like the gambeson, I mean personally I would trust my ship not to sink and prefer armour to stop me getting stabbed in the tender spots a rodent would like to bring home to family but preferences vary.
 
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Well not to belabour the point but I have not, I merely pointed out the Romans had experience of naval warfare, that most sailors historically were at best mediocre swimmers and if you fall off a boat in a battle even a good swimmer might not be feeling too hot.

You then as I read it queried the strategic system under discussion. Roman equipment seems fine to me and if they were to reduce the amount of metal gear they would probably go with wool type objects rather like the gambeson, I mean personally I would trust my ship not to sink and prefer armour to stop me getting stabbed in the tender spots a rodent would like to bring home to family but preferences vary.
The Romans have a dedicated marine corps,so most of the army probably wouldn't be in the ships in the first place,and most likely have different equipment.
 
@darthfanta - the use of ships is mainly to boost the mobility of the army (at least in my mind). At least, based on what you and @RodentRevolution have pointed out, my original idea wasn't fully considered. The idea of increased tactical flexibility, and a high proportion of marines in the military, combined with the Burh style fortifications.

Whilst I've posited wool/leather and some metal - what DID Roman Marines wear? I've read in some quarters a special alloy that doesn't weaken when rusted, or just less armor in general. I hadn't thought to check before making my suggestion.
 
The Romans have a dedicated marine corps,so most of the army probably wouldn't be in the ships in the first place,and most likely have different equipment.

The Principate had done or rather their sailors who were mainly rowers could all fight as land troops and had equipment to that task. By the Third Century however the fleet in Britain at least seems to have been tied into the Saxon Shore system and under a common command with the fortifications. However just as you could put Classiarii on land you put legionaries on ships.

If the legions stayed in Britain it would certainly make sense for them to make use of maritime mobility, whether this would lead to a change in equipment? I personally don't think so but RogueTraderEnthusiast (I assume he means the kind that spreads the light of the God Emperor and steal other peoples money rather than the kind that just steal other people's money) is probably right not to assume they would remain static in function in changed circumstances. They might still see themselves as land troops but I can see them being loaded upon warships for rapid deployments to meet incursions.
 
The Principate had done or rather their sailors who were mainly rowers could all fight as land troops and had equipment to that task. By the Third Century however the fleet in Britain at least seems to have been tied into the Saxon Shore system and under a common command with the fortifications. However just as you could put Classiarii on land you put legionaries on ships.

If the legions stayed in Britain it would certainly make sense for them to make use of maritime mobility, whether this would lead to a change in equipment? I personally don't think so but RogueTraderEnthusiast (I assume he means the kind that spreads the light of the God Emperor and steal other peoples money rather than the kind that just steal other people's money) is probably right not to assume they would remain static in function in changed circumstances. They might still see themselves as land troops but I can see them being loaded upon warships for rapid deployments to meet incursions.

Right on all counts!
 
Historically and IMO the British Isles always did better shipping large volumes of goods by sea - this seems relevant for armies too. Admittedly there is still a need for inland forces, Britain isn't that narrow, but at those points armor can be stowed for use on inland campaigns/actions.

But for coastal defense, and rapid deployment - leather armour works best.

For stopping landings, they may not be the most effective (it entirely depends on how they operate), but for intercepting logistics or harassing reinforcements, or intercepting an invading fleet - navies are great, with the right setup for communicating invasion. They even help to move armies from across the isles to the point of invasion quickly, to intercept them when they are on land.

It might not be overnight, but I don't doubt the ability of a non-Dark Ages Britannia being able to develop the navy that would allow them to stop an invasion force. Just prior to that you'd be using the navy for rapid deployment, with troops able to fight on land and sea.
Ancient leather armour isn't the biker gear you see in movies. It's essentially organic plate armour, worn either alone or to reinforce mail. It wasn't worn for mobility(except for the 17th century buff coat, which is a quite different beast), it was worn because someone wanted armour made of rigid plates but couldn't afford it/their society doesn't have the capacity to produce it out of metal.
If you wanted to increase mobility to deal with raiders, have the legionaries act as mounted infantry. It worked well enough for the Saxon Fyrd.
A raiding force like the Saxons wouldn't have logistics. They'd just take some supplies with them on the ships, and then live off the land when they arrive. A clever use for the navy, though, might be to ambush and burn the ships while the raiders are inland, leaving them stranded and at the mercy of land forces.

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Well not to belabour the point but I have not, I merely pointed out the Romans had experience of naval warfare, that most sailors historically were at best mediocre swimmers and if you fall off a boat in a battle even a good swimmer might not be feeling too hot.

You then as I read it queried the strategic system under discussion. Roman equipment seems fine to me and if they were to reduce the amount of metal gear they would probably go with wool type objects rather like the gambeson, I mean personally I would trust my ship not to sink and prefer armour to stop me getting stabbed in the tender spots a rodent would like to bring home to family but preferences vary.
A gambeson would be worse for the drowning problem, actually. It's just as heavy as a mail shirt and also gets waterlogged. A mail shirt or lorica is also a bit easier to get off in an emergency, I'd avoid it for a naval force. They also didn't become common in Europe until around the 12th century. On the other hand, the Irish seem to have used gambesons before they were a mainstream piece of equipment in the rest of Europe, so the legionaries could adopt them from there.
 
For naval use the weight of armour is irrelevant. Even until quite recently seamen refused to learn to swim. If they went over the side it just prolonged their suffering. It was also seen as tempting fate. I could see any Britannian seaman having the same view. As for how they would be armed, a buckler and gladius would be all they'd need. Much more than that would be more of a hindrance than help.
 
For naval use the weight of armour is irrelevant. Even until quite recently seamen refused to learn to swim. If they went over the side it just prolonged their suffering. It was also seen as tempting fate. I could see any Britannian seaman having the same view. As for how they would be armed, a buckler and gladius would be all they'd need. Much more than that would be more of a hindrance than help.
A bow would be useful for the stages of a naval battle before the ships actually board, and a long spear was a popular weapon for the initial stages of a boarding action.
 
I was assuming that ships of the Classis Britannica would have some form of ballistor, but yes bow would be useful early on, as would boarding pikes.

Carausius was an admiral charged with suppressing pirates in the chamnel before his rebellion so I can't see him neglecting his navy.
 
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