AHC: Roman Empire intact in 2018
- Thread starter Gwachiko
- Start date
-
- Tags
- roman empire rome
ASB for sure. No empire can survive continuously for that long, least of all the Roman Empire (which lasted for 5 centuries IOTL, which is already impressive). The empire would have to shift into an institutional framework that addressed the fragility of imperial bureaucracy (at least in the Western Empire)
danteheadman
Banned
Would you accept a subsequent empire controlling that territory if it claims inheritance from the Roman Empire of old? Like China's successive dynasties within the framework of the Mandate of Heaven.
If so, then the least ASB option might be a Mussoliniwank.
If so, then the least ASB option might be a Mussoliniwank.
Would a successor state like the Carolingian Empire or a loose association of surviving Gothic kingdoms that very nominally hold allegiance to a theoretical Roman emperor?
Or a Holy Roman Empire that covers a lot of territory without necessarily being an organization any more cohesive than our timeline's Holy Roman Empire towards the end of its existence?
Or a Holy Roman Empire that covers a lot of territory without necessarily being an organization any more cohesive than our timeline's Holy Roman Empire towards the end of its existence?
Japan says hello.
Perhaps Napoleon, in an alternate timeline, remains more proudly attached to his Italian ancestry and rather than destroying the HRE has himself crowned as both Emperor of France and Emperor of Rome? From there he can do a lot and at least be hegemon over what was OTL Western Rome x/c for Britain (which still isn't 70% but is the closest I can get)
Yes as long as it's a European Empire with a capital in Rome and a latin official language.
As long as it's a European Empire with a capital in Rome and a latin official language.
The operative word being “empire”. Premodern Japan was not an empire in the same sense of the word as the Romans were (diverse subject peoples, wide geographic scope, centralized military apparatus, etc)
Why a capital in Rome? IOTL, Rome stopped being the capital under their reign of Gallienus (which was formalized by Diocletian)
Of course. My point simply was that Japan has been an Empire in the sense of "has had an emperor" for a long time. Otherwise, Chinese civilization also still fits the bill given the massive length of time the idea of a Chinese Emperor endured.
You are right, capital can be wherever. But the empire must be claiming to be the descendant of Roman Empire or even better call itself as such.
Rossiskaya Imperiya makes peace with the Central Powers early on/otherwise manages to keep the Tsar?
Or does Third Rome not count?
Well, Russian Empire doesn't fit into my criteria as russian is not a latin language nor did Russia ever hold 70% of Rome's lands circa 100 AD.
I didn't know if the criteria had changed completely or had just been made more specific given your last post.
Otherwise, I do think this is rather hard to pull off after the Muslim Conquests and the Mediterranean becoming more of a divider than unifying mare nostrum. If a Byzantine-wank is used as POD, can Greek be used to fulfill the language requirement?
If so, then Belisarius having more luck in consolidating N. Africa and then later a Byzantine victory at Yarmouk--neither ASB--puts post-Justinian Byzantium in a position to regain much of the former empire and ultimately suzerainty over most of the old Empire, particularly if the Great Schism can be avoided.
Deleted member 114175
France coexisted with the Roman Empire and France still exists.
If we look at the year 1000 AD or so, the Byzantine Empire was just one of many countries with a large and assimilated territory. If you hadn't heard of the Roman Empire and you looked at a map of 1000 AD, it wouldn't be clear that France would survive and the Byzantine Empire would fall. The age of the Byzantine Empire at any given point really means nothing, what matters are its economy and durability of its institutions. Empires fall due to economic and military decay rather than due to a ticking timer that says each empire must decline.
The Roman Empire surviving to modern day is not that hard, but it will wax and wane in power over time. If it contains all of Mare Nostrum, it probably would have lost and regained this territory, rather than kept it continuously.
If we look at the year 1000 AD or so, the Byzantine Empire was just one of many countries with a large and assimilated territory. If you hadn't heard of the Roman Empire and you looked at a map of 1000 AD, it wouldn't be clear that France would survive and the Byzantine Empire would fall. The age of the Byzantine Empire at any given point really means nothing, what matters are its economy and durability of its institutions. Empires fall due to economic and military decay rather than due to a ticking timer that says each empire must decline.
The Roman Empire surviving to modern day is not that hard, but it will wax and wane in power over time. If it contains all of Mare Nostrum, it probably would have lost and regained this territory, rather than kept it continuously.
Max Sinister
Banned
And if the Romans or Byzantines took the Arab peninsula, and gradually during the following centuries the Arab language took over, just as Greek pushed away Latin - would that count?
That is not the definition of ASB.
As an imperial power, if you’re not using the ‘has an Emperor’ definition, then Rome is an Empire from the First Punic War until the Fourth Crusade (at the earliest). That gives you 1400 years, not 500.
But also:
So, by this definition, the Roman empire did indeed fall in 476, if not before
